Understand,

First, before you judge them right or wrong understand them. They are away form home in an area when the enemy looks just like "friendlys". Except for other marines virtually no one else speaks English. They are basically walking targets as they can not tell enemy from friendly until they are shot at or blown up. Also, if the enemy takes them prisoner, they will cut off their heads. Not to mention, they are away form their girlfriends and family and any resemblance for normal life for extremely long periods of time.

Think about this, not only is all of the above a factor, but maybe their best friend who recently sved their life was killed by the enemy. They could be shot at every day and maybe mortored or bombed all the time. They live every day expecting to get killed and killing the enemy. Maybe this is the case. The pressure is unreal. Walking targets and no where safe, also witnessing what atrocities the enemy has done to friends they love as brothers and the enemy has killed.

After all that, they finally get some payback and their hate and rage has built up so much that they still don't feel relief. Either they go nuts or maybe they do the only thing they have left to do- the ultimate offence they can think of- the last slap in the face to an enemy that can no longer kill them and the ones they love. They piss on their dead corpses. I know of others who have taken pictures of themselves with dead enemy corpses too.

It is a stress reliever. There is nothing else they can do. All their time is spent avoiding getting killed by these guys and they finally killed some and still don't feel safe. All they can do is piss on them, or maybe get a pict with them. Its not about offending the world. Another time or place they would not do it. Its about relieving the stress that hunts every waking and sleeping moment of their lives. War is hell. These guys are just trying to cope with the stress. Right or wrong, do not judge them without understanding what theyve been through.

As far as this kind of stuff making more enemies for America. Anyone who would hate us from this already hates us. Think about it. The enemy cuts off our heads of prisoners. We take pictures and piss on them. Which is worse? Cut these guys some slack. MINOR punishment for poor judgement is all they should get. Do not try to ruin their lives when you don't understand what they are going through. I know some will say i was there and didn't do that, but remember not everyone copes the same. When you look through a rifle site at another humans head or chest and have to pull a trigger and see them explode, it can effect anyone differently.

"The enemy cuts off our heads of prisoners. We take pictures and piss on them. Which is worse?"

You can't be serious. You're using this to justify it? You're an idiot.

Read the whole post tool.

And you're right. Different people respond to stress in different ways. Some of those responses are wrong, illegal, and should be punished. Stress is not a defence for defiling and disrespecting a corpse. There are other ways to relieve stress. Hell, shooting the damn corpse would be better than urinating on it. The fact is that tens of thousands of soldiers DO NOT relieve their stress this way. I'm sure many murderers are stressed. Many serial killers. Many drunk drivers who cause fatal collisions. I sympathize with what it must feel like to be in a war zone; however, I do not accept that this behaviour is justifiable in the least.

I did. You mentioned that comparison twice. I assumed you did it because you felt it was important. Maybe you should represent your ideas more clearly in the future to avoid confusion. Basic grammar might be a good place to start. Some of my grade 4 students write more eloquently than you.

It is late and i am very tired you pias crap head. I do not care about grammar this late.

I am not justifying anything. I am trying to get you to understand them before you judge them. I am not saying it was right. I do not think i would do that. BUT, i do not think it warrants much at all if anything in the way of a punishment due to the circumstances. I do not condone it or recommend it. I understand it and feel sorry for the soldiers in that situation.

I think it is extremely wrong for people who are living good on freedoms bought with blood to judge those who shed that blood too harshly. Understand? Or would braille do better for you?

One has to remember They are US marines and as a marine in a nother country they are ambassadors of the USA. there actions are a reflection of what our country stands for.

I'm being pias (sic)? Let's not bring religion into this.

And yes you are justifying it. You're saying that what they did should not be punished because they were stressed. By saying that it shouldn't be punished you're either arguing that it wasn't wrong or that there were mitigating circumstances. In either case, you're offering some sort of justification for either why it wasn't wrong or why there were mitigating circumstances. One of your justifications was that the Taliban do worse, which in and of itself is a justification for jack fluff.

How can you say that it deserves very little punishment if at all? If this is a result of some elevated level of stress then these men are not mentally stable and should be institutionalized, just as you would do to somebody who commits murder but is found not guilty due to insanity or some sort of psychological condition. Their circumstances may certainly have led to their actions and that should be taken into account but the fact that tens of thousands of other people had to live through the same circumstances and did not act this way indicates to me that there is something different about these four men. You can't say that war zone creates an environment in which people behave differently as defence against actions when the overwhelming majority of people living in that environment do not commit those actions. These men either need to be punished or they need to be given psychological intervention.

And how are freedoms bought with blood? This one I never understood. I realize it's changing the topic a bit, but I can't help myself. What freedoms are we fighting for right now? As far as I'm concerned the TSA does more to protect American freedoms than the troops have been doing for the last few years. What are the Taliban doing to do? Build a raft and sail to American? Storm the beaches of Manhattan and attack the pillboxes? They took over some planes, and killed a bunch of people. Those peoples' freedoms were jeopardized. Measures have since been put in place to make it exceedingly more difficult for terrorists to take over planes and endanger the freedoms of others. The TSA is protecting your freedoms as an American citizen. All the troops can say they are doing is protecting the freedoms of the local Iraqi and Afghani citizens. And even that's a stretch.

errrr didnt they volunteer for this? I am pretty sure USA does not have compulsory military conscription (though it should, like all countries)

Until they have been forced to join the army then what ever they do can not be defended by anything you have posted.)


i removed this part cause well i just actually read your last paragraph lol...

Its never a problem until it end up on the news. Dont think ppl should judge while they sit on their asses eating pancakes

i'm not required to pass judgement on them. that's somebody else's job. i am allowed to form an opinion based on what i know, and it isn't required to be a good opinion.

Let me make it clear. Those Marines did not piss on dead human beings.

Killing a human is an unnatural act. It is import to understand that. Because of that from training on they are taught to dehumanize the emotions that go along with taking a human life. They do not try to kill humans. They try to kill the enemy. Then they can do it. It is not a human it is the enemy and the enemy wants to kill them. They did not piss on humans, which is what you judge them for. They pissed on the enemy who has created all this stress and has killed their friends and brothers.

I do not have to justify it, i understand it. Yes, i do not think a harsh punishment is in order. Yes, i think they need counseling. Obviously, they have been pushed over the edge. I do not blame them for this. It could happen to anyone. Think on this, in WW2 MANY Marines and Solders cut out gold teeth from dead Japanese. They could do that because it was not humans they were looking at but the enemy.

As far as freedoms, hawkeyee, you we all loose freedoms every time an act of terror happens. We still have not gained back the freedom we had before 911. Think on this now we have a whole new branch of gov in the TSA and home land security. We are paying for that. We are not free to spend that money on other things due to that act of terrorism. So ya, they are over there for our freedom. They fight for each other. You are obv a jerk who knows nothing of military, courage, freedom, or compassion. You are a hollow empty shell of a human who hides behind and then bashes the very people who protect him, probably because you are mad at yourself for being a coward.

i dont think the yanks have made themselves any friends with their foreign policy over the last century . the last few years they have won battles but lost the wars because just like every other conqueror in afghanistan , they are a invader and always will be .

I agree with that. If i was president we would not be there. Instead i would have carpet bombed the whole country. Turned it into a parking lot. I would not make any friends there but they would be too busy trying to survive and not have time to plot against us. :)

I am not going to give my opinion on what these men have done. It wouldn't change anyone's mind anyway. I will say though that I find it amazing that anyone of you are saying what you would do given the same situation. Most of us have no idea how we would act in any stressful event we encounter.

Mob mentally has caused many to do things they would have never done and regret once they have had a moment to think about it. If you think you are any different the human condition has escaped your understanding.

the yanks made a friend out of me over the last century, what with liberating the planet and being a beacon of hope, respect and human rights around the world, far surpassing pretty much any other country i can think of.

but three soldiers and a guy with a camera isn't the entire country..

Who are you trying to kid Braden. The USA/Britain alliance having troops stationed all over the world has done nothing to keep communism and the tyrants of the world at bay.

The Marshall plan was a huge mistake and I am sure millions suffered from it. If only the German/Japan coalition would of succeeded the whole world would be one happy place.

I am also sure Kim Jong Il would of been more than happy to of stayed on his own side of the 38th parallel. We have been wasting our time and money sitting there not protecting freedom.

Who cares that we are the only power in history to invade a land and once its been conquered we rebuild the infrastructure, secure the peace the best we can, train the people to do the job themselves, allow the people to create their own government and then leave only asking for your friendship and support in return.

Oh the evil of it all

We should be above pissing on corpses.

I don't see how anyone is trying to defend this..

You troll you :P

I should edit that last post to:

I don't see how anyone is trying to defend this, but I'm not surprised that Deerhunter is.

DH: "Anyone who would hate us from this already hates us. Think about it. The enemy cuts off our heads of prisoners."

That is the wrong impression. Inherent in that statement is an "us vs. them" mentality. You have lumped some large population into the "them" category. I'm not talking about the guys who already hate us and want to cut off our heads. I'm talking about what is referred to as the "margins". The ones who are on the edge and being pushed and pulled from one side to the other and back.

These are citizens in foreign countries who see invaders supposedly there for "good" and want to believe it but then see this stuff. They may have a brother just like Monex who is only a soldier for the Taliban because it is all he knows how to do and has to feed his family. Then they see his body get pissed on. Next thing you know, they are a little more likely to pass intel to the enemy.

There are citizens here domestically too. We have an increasing number of people here who are very dissatisfied with our government, its actions and who have sympathies to other cultures, countries, religions, etc. Impressionable kids where this stuff is used to radicalize them further.

Basically, this gives AMMO to the enemy. It WILL be used as propaganda to further add to the numbers of those who are no longer in the margin but are now "against" us. Some of those may be involved in direct action that endangers us. Others may simply oppose our foreign policy at the UN or vote for a more extreme regime in their own country.

I'm not saying these soldiers should be shot or even imprisoned. AFAIK, there is a UMCJ (?) process already underway, and that is fine. They will hopefully be removed from active duty and counseled for a while. Hopefully that will be sufficient.

What ticks me off are the people cheering for what they did and saying it was justified and maybe they should have done worse to the SOB's.

"What ticks me off are the people cheering for what they did and saying it was justified and maybe they should have done worse to the SOB's. "


I agree with that and think it doesn't do any good doing what they did. I think many here are confused about justifying something versus understanding something. I understand why they did what they did and yes they need help more than punishment. Thats my point.

How is this an argument? You don't desecrate the remains of an individual, whether it be friend or foe.

Doing so not only undermine the argument you're trying to make, but also reveal your own lack of moral judgement.

Hobo, has anyone ever done something to you that makes you so mad you don't think straight? All you see is red? You want to do anything you can to inflict harm on them? Personally i have not but i can see how someone could. You are lucky if you have not suffered enough to understand this. But trust me, good MORAL people could do terrible things. It only takes the right thing to meet their breaking point. When that happens they do not think of anything else.

And they should be punished for doing so.

How is killing a human an unnatural act? Mammals kill each other all the time. It's illegal. It's immoral. It's looked down upon. Those do not make it inherently unnatural. But you're right - being asked to take a life will change you as a person. I'm not arguing that it doesn't. What I'm saying, and you so conveniently seem to ignore. is that, and I'll try to highlight this as best I can:

***TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SOLDIERS ARE PLACED IN THE SAME STRESSFUL ENVIRONMENT AND ASKED TO PERFORM THE SAME "UNNATURAL" ACTS UNDER THE SAME THREAT OF DEATH FROM THE ENEMY AND THEY DON'T PISS ON DEAD BODIES***

Under normal circumstances I would admonish somebody who writes in all caps like that, but given that I've made this point several times and you've ignored it I can only assume that either you didn't notice it or don't have a valid response for it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the former.

You absolutely cannot compare removing precious metal from a dead bodies' mouth to urinating on a dead body. The two are nothing alike. One is akin of removing valuables from a person's body. The other has no benefit to you whatsoever. To urinate on a body is an act that cannot be compared to removing gold from a person's mouth.

What freedoms to we lose when an act of terror happens? Perhaps civil freedoms? But those freedoms are taken away by our own governments who use terror as a justification. Millions of airplanes flew over the US without incident. Then 4 of them were taken over. Since, millions more have flown over the US without incident, AND the group/country that funded and planned the original attack have been for all intents and purposes whipped out. Any freedoms that you as an American are missing right now as a result of 9/11 are squarely on the shoulders of your government, and not whatever is left of the crippled Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Iraq.

As for your personal comments, I'm curious how you were able to come to those conclusions. You don't know me. You don't know a damn thing about me. To begin with, I'm Canadian, so no, I don't hide behind your military. Second, nobody hides behind your military because your military is over there, and Americans are over here. The enemy is also over there, and they have no means to getting over here. So what protection is being afforded and to whom is a mystery. I actually happen to know quite a bit about military, courage etc. I come from a long line of servicemen and women back home in Romania. I also happen to know quite a bit about the purpose of a military - to protect a nation's population from external threats; NOT to forwardly extend one nation's policies onto another.

ok well to me cheaters in earth are just as bad as terrorists. So does that mean its ok for me to take a fluff on your dead mothers corpse?

These people weren't involved in 9/11. Would you have supported the decision for Jews to take a dump on dead German bodies regards what those Germans' participation in the war had been? Would you also take a dump on Timothy McVeigh's body if you were given the chance? Would member of the Irish military be justified on taking dumps on the bodies of IRA members? Bottom line is that too many Americans see Muslims as being less than human. That's the only reason they don't have a problem with this. It's sick. It's backward. It has no place in the 21st century. If I were American these images would make me feel shame. Ultimate, never ending shame. And the fact that people like you can make the comment that you would take a dump on another human's body just leaves me shaking my head.

This was wrong and there is no excuse. I say this with a background of my entire adult life in the military (I enlisted at age 17). 28 years of military training and discipline as well and an understanding of COIN and the successful way to win a counterinsurgency all says this was completely wrong and a huge unneeded headache for the guys current on the ground and trying to make the right thing happen.

That said, the offense has to be looked at in perspective.

According to the UCMJ an accused can present matters of DEFENSE (evidence he/she did not do it), matters of EXTENUATION (good reasons for having done what was done) and matters of MITIGATION (why the punishment should be light).

Y'all are getting all wrapped up and confusing extenuating factors with defense. Unless the video is a hoax, these guys are guilty. I dont have my UCMJ handy but I am sure there are 3-4 chargeable articles there as well as disobeying the general order to NOT DO STUPID fluff (well, thats how I paraphrase the longish list of standing orders....)

So now that we know they are guilty the issue is what kind of punishment? UCMJ gives some pretty wide authority to commanders. They could be put in a general courts martial and be looking at probably 5-10 years hard labor with a bad conduct discharge. Or administrative punishment with restriction to the barracks. Or lots in between.

Thats where those matters of extenuation and mitigation come into play. COMMANDERS are given the authority to decide the type of punishment and with good reason... they know their Soldiers (er, Marines) better than anyone else and are best suited to understand those matters. What is the service record of these men? Did they earn medals for bravery in the face of grave personal risk or hide in the FOB whenever possible? Volunteer for the hard/dangerous/thankless jobs (of which the military has countless number) or do only what was told? Always striving to exceed the highest standard or do whatever gets by? THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

Also what was happening at the time, the command climate (if the leadership was bad it does not excuse the offense, but can be a mitigating factor), and the situation at the time of the offense. How many local ftards were shaking hands during the day and blowing them up at night. THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

Finally, we also have to look at the result. What impact did their misconduct have? When you create an international incident, there is gonna be more boot in the ass-kicking than if you just pissed off your platoon leader. Not very fair to the guy who gets caught publicly but THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE TOO.

I did not like hearing the sec's of state and defense making their 'hang-em high' statements. They went, imho, beyond their authority and responsibility to just repudiate the acts. And they should have put more effort (some at least) into pointing out the really historic record our Troops have for respect of the local culture and extraordinary discipline under very difficult circumstances. And the US record for bringing those few who do commit crimes to justice.

So those guys did the wrong thing. But we cannot - and should not - judge how strongly they are punished or what mercy may be given. Only those commanders directly charged both with the care of these troops and the accomplishment of the missions should do that.

.

It was prob a bad idea to piss on them... It was an even worse idea to film it.

Dehumanization of enemy combatants has always taken place in warfare throughout time, something that sadly won't change for many eons to come.

yet that is supposed to happen with soldiers, not with the "intelligent" people that stay at home, they have to dehumanize them in order to react well under fire, but what is your sorry asses excuse?

The people in Afghanistan had as much to do with 911 as any of you, stop trying to link them together because that isn't how it works, Al Qaeda leader was killed and the organization is pretty much in shambles, you can't just put the blame on someone else because that fits your amoral sense of justice.

Some members of the Taliban have done terrorist attacks, but wouldn't you think that if that was the majority of their members belief they would be all hiding in cities making booms all day and night, yet they are on the mountains trying their best to do effective guerrilla warfare in order to free their land of the outsiders invaders.

Whatever excuses you try to use, the US is an invader in their land, that they would be better off without you? that is unlikely because the war screwed the balance they had and now everything went to hell (opium, etc).

Let the fighting and dehumanization to the soldiers, you are supposed to keep the moral of the country, otherwise you guys will end shooting nukes at the enemy before long.

hawkeyee "I'm Canadian, so no, I don't hide behind your military."


LMFAO, you are right, you hide behind our entire country. No offense, i like Canada in general, but you guys are protected by two oceans on each side and the most powerful country in the world below you. YES, you most certainly ARE protected. You are only fooling yourself to think otherwise.

I will say the US too has been protected from much harm since existence due to the two oceans. I do not deny that.

You keep saying "***TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SOLDIERS ARE PLACED IN THE SAME STRESSFUL ENVIRONMENT AND ASKED TO PERFORM THE SAME "UNNATURAL" ACTS UNDER THE SAME THREAT OF DEATH FROM THE ENEMY AND THEY DON'T PISS ON DEAD BODIES***"


I DON'T CARE! AGAIN, i am not saying what they did is right. I am saying i understand why they did it and i think they should be cut some slack. It comes as no surprise people like you who are very well protected and sheltered are outraged. Go hide in your secluded environment and stop commenting on things you do not understand.

Maybe it was the only thing available to use for giving them their last rites. Or instead of all the virgins, they asked for a golden shower instead.

Thank you, thats all i wanted...

Once your dead,it doesn't really matter what happens to you.

war again?

Lets say those Talibans had children, lets say those children saw the soldiers do that, now you tell me it doesn't matter.

and again with Taliban = Terrorist, then US government = Terrorist is also true, same with US media = Terrorist, if the Taliban had terrorism as a core principle they wouldn't be fighting as guerrillas, it would be far more useful of each and everyone of their members to make booms and go to the nearest police station to blow up.

Terrorism is a ditch effort/last resort taught to them by Al Qaeda, with in turn learned it from the CIA.

This thread is unbelieveable.

I am pretty sure if those guys had children and the children knew their dads were killed that alone would make them want to kill Americans. I doubt peeing on them makes any difference at all. Your point is that those kids saw that video and said to themselves "well, i don't mind that dad is dead but they pissed on him, now im really mad"? Please, you make me laugh. Anyone who already hated us still does. Anyone who did not still doesnt. Nothing has changed.

I am sure if you were fighting a war you wouldn't kill anyone. You would dodge all the bullets and no one would get hurt. Everyone would be treated good and in the end the enemy you are warring would love you, sing comb by ya, and think it was all a big misunderstanding. WAIT, that only happens in dreams. Ya, keep dreaming.

whatever.

us media are terrorists?

many of them are far to the left leaning oppononents of america's foreign policy. I must have missed something?

are you guys trying to use logic and reason with deerhunter?

protip:

it ain't gonna work

Way to go Trife. You can not challenge my argument so you make personal attacks on me. You win first prize for biggest looser.



I will say i think most all the people arguing against me are good people. I think if they served under fire they MIGHT think different. At this point it is doubtful any of us is going to change our opinion so i think i am done with this thread. At least before any other trolls like Trife make it personal when it is not. Thanks for an interesting debate guys.

DH: Technically. The prize for biggest loser, would naturally be the first prize. Redundancy isn't going to win arguments. I repeat. Redundancy isn't going to win arguments.

Regardless. Trife is a loser. My loser. My first place, number 1, top of the list, numero uno, king of the hill, BIGGEST LOOSE-(ha ha loose)R.

Lastly. I am very VERY proud to be an American. I will in no form defend what these kids did. I will defend the fact that they ARE children. These kinds of things happen in every day life. Heck, I remember peeing on all sorts of things in my youth. Come to think of it, I still pee on all sorts of things. In and out of the bedroom.

Having said that. (I lied, apparently redundancy will win an argument) I AGAIN say that I don't condone these action. I also am not ashamed to be an American because of these actions. If anyone in the world out there thinks that these children are a representative of the American population, then you have to be a bigger "looser" than Trife or a bigger idioot than DH.

Which is no small feat.

*Pee's on thread*

a) every veteran/soldier (granted the sample size is small, only about 7 or 8 people) i've talked to are downright disgusted by this. they're pissed because they put in their blood, sweat, and tears to serve this country and then see a bunch of jackoffs going against everything they stand/stood for. sure, AQ beheads our guys and drag them through streets. we don't do that. why? because we're better than they are, and we don't lower ourselves to our level.

b) yeah, i'm a looser ever since zen got a hold of me after he had been drinking :(

Your not going to lower yourself to your own level trife? Thats deep bro :)

heard they were snipers. at what range did they kill their targets?

i'd probably pee and crap my pants if i got that excited... probably wouldn't be able piss on them anyway. pfft, they're trained how to react under fire...

How the hell do we hide behind your country? I never understood the argument that Canada hides behind the US for protection as if there's a dozen nations just itching for an opportunity to go to war against Canada and the only thing in their way is our neighbour to the south. That argument just demonstrates the conceit and general ignorance of anything outside of their borders that many Americans suffer from. I assure you. America's military strength contributes very little to the safety and security of Canadians. Aside from Russia's interest in the far North which we're taking care of on our own nobody even gives a fluff that we're here.