That is just dumb. Why did he set it to private 😭
Vic if you are reading this .... Screw you dude!

So what you're saying is that I should look for ways to infiltrate Darkness/Mercs and whoever else, outside the game?

Let me ask you where you draw the line, because I'm genuinely curious.

If I made fake tools that I distributed and people used, but I could access them, would that be cheating?

What if I found a loophole that allowed me to view information in my browser that I shouldn't have access to. Would that be cheating?

What if I found a glitch in the game that allowed my spy attacks to be more effective. Would that be cheating?

What if I found out where someone lived in real life, and explained to them that I knew where they lived. Or outed them to other people. Would that be cheating?

What if I started calling someone's place of work to annoy them, or maybe got them on the phone with a 'work call' while my team hit them, so they couldn't wall. Would that be cheating?

What if I ordered pizzas to their house from a fake email address, and when I knew they were being delivered we started to attack. Would that be cheating?

I could go on and on, but I think you get my point.


Who gets to decide what is cheating and what isnt? Are these rules written down anywhere? If the rules aren't written down, and it's allowed unless it's specifically disallowed (like is the case here) I would bet that some of these examples I gave would not be considered cheating (or illegal, to the best of my knowledge), and thus you would say are part of the game.


I'd vehemently disagree. I think many of the things I described are absolutely awful. But they aren't cheating... I guess?

If you threaten me in real life bud you gotta realize I don't call the cops. You would be calling the fluffing cops.

Some of the items in your list would get you in legal trouble.

The community, mods, and admins wholeheartedly do not tolerate doxing.

I understand your statements are hyperbole, but it isn’t something to make light of.

I think everyone needs to take a step back and chill out. This is a _game_ that we play for entertainment. We play within the confines of that game and maybe auxiliary lines of communication such as discord; however, it is still within the confines of the _game_

We may be a salty bunch and war in-game or bicker back and forth, but that is where it always ends.

I hope that is the way you see it.

I'm not making light of anything, I'm asking a freaking question.

And symba, chill with the bravado for a moment bud. I get you're a tough guy. You've proven that in game, you don't need to low-key threaten me when I'm making it VERY clear I think the hypotheticals I raised were awful.

But I'm asking a question. And you've ignored a few of them, anyway. Where is the line? Lying is ok. Creating fake profiles is ok. Creating fake discords is ok. Is gaining access to systems ok? Gaining access to personal information? Leveraging that info?

Where IS the line? And how is that decided? And where is that written down?


From my perspective we've already crossed that line. From all of yours, we haven't. So I'm asking for clarification as to where the line is now.

That is my answer to your question.

We just like to troll you in game. We would never attack anyone personally in this game.

BH I gave you my email address to send these emails you said you received. I have yet to see them. That was like a week and half ago.

Yeah, I think Req answered your questions.

Even Gerdler created a "fake" (scratch that - alternative) forum handle to troll SF - which is completely within the rules, you can only have one game account though.

So yes, while people may not want to partner with you in the future because of it, deception / lies can be part of the game (or an extension at least); like Derrick was noting, if you broke a uNAP with an alliance, you could expect to suffer those consequences, and people would call you a liar and untrustworthy, but it wouldn't be cheating, etc. I personally stick with the group who've proven themselves over time, and yes, that can be unfortunate because it's a lot less likely that totally new players will find a good group given we're now wary of randos messaging us out of the blue, it also means that some of us can choose to shy away from the drama and political intrigue and have fun competing with friends.

Got it. Now I know.

Well actually, I still don't know on some of those hypotheticals.

If it cheating if someone uses tools outside the game that other players use, to steal information?

This is a legitimate question I have. I would consider it cheating.. but based on these conversations, I don't think you guys do?

It depends. Let's say you apply to a 3rd party site using a fake nick and get accepted to that site and gain access to war plans and make them public. That to me makes you a dirty spy, and is something that has happened...idk....a hundred or so times. It's not cheating, I just personally wouldn't do it. I also personally was never in RD, never ran multies, never used bots, never used a fake nick to gain info, and never had the desire to do so, because I like to play it square. I think people respect that, and respect is all I aim to achieve by being trustworthy.

Can you break an unbreakable pact and break the decorum in the game? For sure you can. I've never liked to break a pact I signed, but I've been a part of a few pacts falling apart, and I lost the respect of some for it.

That said, there are many current players who have in the past done these sort of things. Two former LaF/RD members named TurtleCrawler and Hanlong were banned from the game for hacking third party clan hosting sites. It's pretty clear to me the difference between the two and is not so much a grey line.

That said, and I know you don't believe it, but darkness didn't invent the tools they use for war. They borrow them just like yo do. War bots and 3rd party sites are all pretty secure these days. Only ever seen one used for that once and it was 15 years ago, and the person got caught and outed almost immediately. If they had that capacity, all the vets would know.

As far as your Slippery Slope Logical Fallacy argument, the line more or less stops at legal. I'm glad you could add Slippery Slope to your repertoire of logical fallacies. We've already hit the Straw Man and Ad Hominem enough. Glad we could add another fallacy to the picnic basket, but I think the answer is fairly obvious.

This is Vic, shame the video is private, because nothing that happened here is even close to what he did.
https://wiki.earthempires.com/index.php/Vic

As you can see, this has happened before, and honestly this is tame compared to Vic and some of the past players.
Vic, you still owe us money. jerk.

Why would I believe you that the tools are secure when I just believed that Coalie was on my side when he wasnt? Ya'll literally just told me to do a better job vetting people, and now you want me to just believe blindly that these tools are secure?


I would be a fool to believe you guys again.


And I didn't give any slippery slope fallacy. I asked specific questions.

You seem to want to give me, in particular, a hard time over logic and fallacies. I understand why, but if you're going to keep doing it let's at least do it correctly.

A slippery slope fallacy is one in which a person claims one event will lead to another, more extreme event.

I never said that I thought Coalie spying would lead to people hacking, or using tools, or doxxing people. To my knowledge, those things have ALREADY happened in this game. I'm asking if you all think various scenarios are cheating.


I'm happy to continue playing the logical fallacy game, if you want, Derrick. You'll learn that behind my passion and energy, I'm also not an idiot. And I can already tell you think you're just a bit smarter than I, and you are seeking to take little pot shots at me with these intellectual digs. If you're going to do it, you better make sure you don't make mistakes though.

The person who criticizes someone else's grammar better be spot on with their own. And the person who wants to call out logical fallacies all day better actually understand the logical fallacies they are going to invoke.

And I should add - a lot of my very specific questions don't get specific answers. I'm starting to wonder why.


Let me ask again, very directly.


If someone made tools that others used, and those tools could be used to access information that they wouldn't otherwise have access to, would that be cheating? (IRC, Warbots, GHQ, etc)

Two of us can play this game.

Cheating? I guess no. Your country generally won't be deleted for nefarious activities outside of the game itself. That's I think how a lot of stuff like this gets started. That's kind of just a "fluff move." The only cheating in this game will turn your country purple. Things like collusion on solo servers, multying, etc. That is the only actual "cheating." Every other legal method for winning is kinda fair game. And players here have taken that to every extreme. Like I said, I've been a part of breaking decorum before....

But lets say I intentionally mislead someone into believing something untrue to get 2 of my enemies to attack each other. That's just a good political strategy in the interest of your clan. Will the person you misled probably never forgive you? Idk. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. But that will always be a good thing for your clan. And as a leader that's your first responsibility.

I still think you're just screaming into a room full of some good people, some jerks, some americans, some euros, some asians, some Australians, some men, some women, some tall, some short and trying to generalize everyone together as one giant community of the same person. Like any community, there's a bit more subtlety than that. There are folks here we can trust, some folks we can't. There's folks you can trust that I can't and vise versa. It's a pretty diverse group of middle aged cantankerous old heads. I wouldn't expect the best for everyone, but I wouldn't expect the worst either.

Has there been times when I didn't use a tool or didn't allow people in my clan because I didn't know them well or trust the source? Absolutely. I don't blindly trust anyone either, but I use my best judgement. And like other old heads have pointed out, the people a lot of folks tag with now have relationships that started 20 years ago when us old fluffs were children. It's certainly different for a new player haha.

That's why so many people recommended you learn the subtleties of the game a little bit before you came in this hot. Part of good politicking is shaking some hands.

Jeez.

All these posts are too long to read these days.

Less talking & more fighting!

Vic tried to bribe me and another player and corrupt the Monsters about 10 years ago. I ended up leaving Monsters over the corruption caused by LaF, and I have spent all this time getting into a position where I could take my retal on LaF. Retal!

Actually just 5 or 6 years ago

It's a rich history haha. For me it was BSS getting destroyed by Haxor who was also a color. I quit when 2025 folded. But I had to come back when Link told me a whole pile of ICNers were in a dope war clan about to smash LaF. About 7 or 8 years out of the game I came back for my revenge lol. Never forget! lol. At least I could feel like after Elders campaign they had as much reason to hate me, and we were good lol.

To be fair, I have been both a victim and benefactor of Derrick doxing. I must admit I liked both =)

Lol, long time no see Penguin :)

I’ve always considered you to be vic 2.0. I’ll never forget what you did to my homeclan ICN.

Lol fluff Nole though. Never liked that dude and now I get to have him block me for life on everything. Win win.

This whole thread i swear
https://tenor.com/...native-dance-gif-13356969