MD and LaF are better than SoF in pretty much every way. SoF's record over MD is a result of SoF calling in allies to bail them out of every losing war and using their allies to create wars where SoF has an advantage (eg FS).

SOL is more debatable. They outperformed SoF this set but have been weaker recently.

LaF is the reason your side won, not the reason our side lost.

Difference being that you would not have won without LaF but had we been more active, we could have climbed back in and won it.

I didn't say SoF/Rival outgrew SEM BEFORE LaF struck. I didn't say that at all. The issue about growth was to account for the amount of FA SoF/Rival received vs the FA received by SEM. In other words, how can we explain the growth found from SoF/Rival if they weren't receiving more FA at the time?

I offered:

-Superior Country builds. The production numbers don't lie.
-More Average land.
-An implied point that needs to be explicit: SEM lost more breakers AFTER LaF exited the war. Recall that the networth advantage and the breaker amount was a push. Superior war effort from SoF/Rival caused that.
-Ford offered a new dimension...activity. If that is true, it is no surprise to see SoF/Rival outperform. If we take what mvedol says for truth then we can assume this is a factor.

As for the 10% number, Xyle/Flamey can't make that number up. It either is true or it isn't. You haven't addressed it at all.


=======

SoF beat MD 1v1 when MD was larger. MD called in a fully stocked tagjumper and massive FA...they still lost.

SoF has outperformed MD in every coalition war to date.

SoF has beaten SoL 1v1 the last time they fought 1v1. What reasons do you think SoL outperformed SoF this set? The stats indicate otherwise.

SoF also didn't tell SoL to FS them with two additional allainces. If SoL thinks they are better than SoF, they should have FSd them alone. They have the numbers. Even at say 80 members, the war is fair considering they got the FS OOP.

man, you make more excuses than a drug addict. you need to seek help.

What production numbers? You haven't posted any, you haven't shown average land stats across the war, you've just said "SoF has more avg land now"


And "superior war effort from SoF/RIVAL"? Huh, odd, because the war only turned when LaF entered (from SEM leading) and then again when the FA wars started (from SEM catching up). But sure, I guess the SoF war effort was completely unrelated to these two things, SoF just started fighting really hard and coincidentally these insignificant outside factors like LaF and mass FA from RD/LaF didn't matter at all.


as for SoF's war record: lol, if you're so good, how come you always call in an ally when you're losing?

i love how you ignore the facts like, you FSed SoF oop with 40 more members. you got mass FA first, and more of it, and that your ally didnt back you up and left you out to dry.

it is all LaF's fault.

I can't post any specific numbers as that might be a board violation (I don't know the specific rules around here but it seems that this type of information requires a turn). I do know that many of SoF top ranked countries were producing more than many of their comparable SoL counterparts. There is a reason for that....country composition. I invited those with the ops to check it out. It's along the same lines as what happened with the FA from respective allies. SoF/Rival used what they had better.

If you are going to quote me, then do so accurately. I claimed that SoF/Rival took average land after LaF exited the war. Obviously SoF/Rival have more average land now, that's not the argument.

The war turned when it was fair (points to the 10% number Xyle made up). Surprise how that happened...you guys can't get it done when the playing field isn't in your favor....unlike what SoF did against MD.

One side wins and one side losses. As one side takes the lead, the gap usually grows unless the leader stumbles a bit. SoF/Rival took the lead and didn't stumble too much. As days go by, the gap between the winning and losing side widens. This is an obvious result of war. It was not due to FA. It was due to SoF/Rival outhitting and outkilling, killing better targets, and focusing on growth (I'm sure both sides did this but SoF/Rival did it better). As the gap widened, SEM asked for massive FA. Who knows, they probably received FA to their restarts well beforehand. We already know PDM was sending FA to SoL.

SoF hasn't needed anyone to bail them out. Next time, tell SoL to FS SoF alone. SoF didn't tell Monsters and Evo to join in.

bonus

You remember SOL and their moral victory thing?

What SoF leaders seem to have convinced you is that SoF would have won a hypothetical victory. Ok, sure, SoF won this actual war, but that was obviously due to LaF help. What you and MauricXe are funnily trying to do is somehow show that SoF didn't need to call in LaF because *insert random irrelevant fact that's probably not true* but called them in anyway because *????*

Wasn't this the exact same rationalizing process you went through after MD kicked your ass and you called LaF in on them a few resets ago? Sov will remember from a Fist vs MX war where TIE came in that he used the same kind of arguments to try to explain how MX would have won a war they were clearly losing without allies. He's quite experienced at declaring hypothetical victory so I'm not surprised that SoF members are falling for his "facts" here.

no, we won this war because we have better allies than you do. you are mad because you thought that you had the war in the bag FSing a clan oop with superior numbers. once the politics started playing out, your allies fluffed out.

this wasnt an arranged war, it was an OOP FS, out of spite. you cant complain that SoF played your game and beat you at it. that is just stupid. you can say we won because of LaF all you want, but if LaF hadnt came in, and you did win, it would of been because you FSed oop with larger numbers. no outcome would of been rationalized as being fair, and you are trying to say we didnt fight fair. that is ludicrous. if you cant see this, then you are beyond help.

I am sorry but really.


you guys are blaming a loss in this war based on 6k hits and 18 kills in week 2 of the set???

SEM Total
Total 98,930 193 513


SOF/Rival
Total 94,840 182 521

oh ok, so yeah, that totally makes sense. with all the fa both sides have gotten, where both sides had countries become breakers like 2 days after being oop...

that excuse is now redundant, based on the amount of time left in the set and the amount of fa received, it is now obvious that while laf had an effect on the war at the time, it had no effect on the total outcome.


On a side note, dont listen to PP on anything to do with war.


He just has blind hatred and rage now, nothing you can say will sway him, we could beat every alliance in the server 1v1 and we would still be crap and make excuses for every alliance.

The amount of FA received by Sof&Co is easy to be calculated.

Just take Laf last 3 netting sets average NW - substract this set AVG NW and multiply it by an average No. of countries ( Smth like 90 ) and you`ll find a relative amount of FA Sof and Co got only from Laf.

Of course this is a primitive way of doing calculation, but that`s all we have until Iscode decides to jump sides with some FA packages and some Sof tag info | - * |

Taking a look at the total and avg NW atm - with MD being ahead 200 MIL NW in "total" and 6 mil NW on "average" in a stage of the game when LAf would have had all the ++ you can strongly sustain not only that Laf took out EVO but also financed Sof`s side into another "well-deserved" victory.


I doubt SEM side could ever get at least half of the FA RD&Laf can provide to their friends.

hey look its Alin!!!

oh yeah good point scode calling in LaF didn't influence the war at all lol you just called them in because ?????? but really you could have done it without them

sof declares hypothetical victory

You killed all their fluffing best countries. Why do you even try to pretend that that is not a huge deal. Jesus. Once the best countries are gone a 10% gap will grow very fast. If they are not gone it can be closed. As for the rest of that everyone is talking out of their asses.

And in no way am I arguing that Sof getting hit didnt hurt them so dont try to put words in my mouth anyone!

You people are fluffing ridiculous. Why are people arguing over it? Why not just agree to have fluffing tag admins post the FA news for the entire set and you can have some hard numbers to argue about. This is just fluffing ridiculous.

Tella I can only speak for RD but we did it about how you said. There was a noted effort to get more people sending at one point. We have to my knowledge completely stopped for quite awhile now. Anything else is just individuals.

There are arguments for both sides but until someone posts some numbers then I think you are all idiots. You are arguing semantics for something that has factual proof ingame but no one is posting that. I would love to see that proof from both sides. Would be ammusing to see a victor in this stupid argument.

No matter who sent more it doesnt matter. You both got lots of FA and everyone knows it. Find something better to argue about.

That shows pretty well what you think about SoL:) So, SoL is kinda 3 times worse than Evo:) Im not sure what you think about Monsters, but i wouldnt call them as fluff as SoL.


And, well, this one:


are perfectly confirm that SoL is kinda fluff:) Alin dont even know what ghost acres returns changed since last time LaF/RD netted. And also he dont count days difference. And misses alot other smaller things wich affect netting (different players, different starts, different market price, different grab targets, about 6K attacks to kill 18 countries and so on). Comparing different set networth is stupid and wont give even near result about FA sent. Thats shows how SoL good at netting.



Ah, and also. If someone offered me a week or 2 of freeFA for 18 dead countreis, i would even delete myself:)

All i have to say is that i didn`t played in Sol for more than 15 months now ...

That just means SoL made no progress for 15 months:)

This pretty much sums up how stupid your 'superior builds' argument is sounding. As I have pointed out multiple times in various threads, Evo was focusing on growth and outpacing you guys before Laf's intervention. I ordered all members to spend no more than 50% of their turns hitting, and even told them just to grow prior to the Rival FS. Despite Rival joining in, Evo was nearly matched with them in nw and land, despite being about 2 members fewer.

Evo were the breakers.

After Laf joined and put out an additional 6k hits(which took Rival weeks to match) and killed 18 of our top countries, we were left with very few sol breakers and we fell behind in land and nw. AND as I mentioned before, we spent about a week waiting for MD to decide on their course of action, as our members restarted and held onto turns before tagging again. THAT had a huge impact as well. I was the one that went into protection, and you can clearly see just how long I was holding out while our allies sorted themselves out.

So yeah, Laf's entry pretty much changed the equation entirely. You have a massive amount of hits in a short time that took Rival weeks to match. You have a week or so of confusion which caused us to lose momentum. And you have 18 breakers DEAD.

If you were ahead by 10%, why would I argue that? What's the point? You guys are walking around with blinders on, pretty much insisting that you won this war through sheer force of will and martial prowess, while the real reason you win most of the time is due to the support of your allies.

Ford, I hope you're sitting down, cause I'm going to rock your world. I pretty much agree with what you said. If you factor in the politics, then yes, Sof is definitely one of the top 2 premier warring alliances. The strength of your allies is what allows you to be as good as you are.

Personally, I have been consistent with the message I am trying to say: You guys started fluffing about us getting FA, when the only reason we got FA is because you guys called in Laf to flip the equation upside down. I don't really give a fluff about all the FA. I do think it's ridiculous that you guys continue to claim we got FA a week earlier than we did, but whatever.

As to warring oop out of spite: That sounds like Sov talking and it's bullfluff. It was a strategy. Everyone knows how powerful getting the FS is, and we were damn sure not going to let you get it this set. Since you were well aware that we were coming, we knew it was going to be an early war. Add to that the fact that Sof is VERY good at the week 2ish wars, we didn't want to let you get to your sweet spot. Thus, oop fs. This has nothing to do with grudges and unfairness, it was a strategy that we decided on and went for, nothing more.

And honestly, Sof really is good. I just don't think you guys are as good as you claim you are, and a BIG part of what makes you great is your allies.

So basically you agree with me...SoF had better country composition than SoL...which lead directly to the growth difference. It was not a result of massive FA coming to SoF. Also, PP has been contradicted by a more informed tella...thanks tella.

Moreover, the entry of LaF is still not relevant to the actual argument. SoL is still responsible for running good countries. SoF produced many breakers despite not having the luxury of saving 50% of their turns each day to grow. This is what you guys seem to be missing....SoL dropped the ball for your side. It does not matter that Evo was creating "super breakers" and lost them. Recall that SoF wasn't afforded the luxury of creating large breakers....they were afforded the luxury of being outnumbered by over 50% for a week and absorbing an FS. What matters is that when everyone was just about even, your guys couldn't compete.


I enjoy how your side continues to downplay the 120 vs 75 for 6 days (with an FS to boot!), and then complains about LaF's entry. That's a classic double standard if I ever seen one.

The strength of our allies is one dimension of our standing. But our allies don't run our warchats, our countries, or make us outhit our enemies.


You said: "because you guys called in Laf to flip the equation upside down."
Let's not pretend that LaF was called in to even the war. MD chickened out so we are left with a totally different scenario. The result was an evening of the war, but it was not the intent.

Your esteemed allies of MD rather sit on the sidelines and fight a war via proxy instead of face the prospect of losing to SoF for the 100th time.

Did you not read my posts at all? Way to cherry pick the hell outta my post...

WE had the better countries prior to Laf entering the war. Rival had already spent their load, and Evo was still ahead of them. Sol was slightly edging out Sof, and Monsters was in the middle somewhere. NW and Land-wise, we were ahead by a decent margin. That margin was erased by Laf. Evo lost somewhere around 70% of our NW, which also allowed Rival and Sof to focus exclusively on Sof's top countries.



Rival was called in to even the war. Laf was called in after that to completely reverse the situation.


As far as this terribly potent oop FS, it didn't have nearly the impact that other subsequent events had. Rival was able to net for an extra week and put out their own FS, and that just about evened the numbers. And THEN another 80 countries who are pretty much the best netters on the server joined in and ALSO FSed. In those 3-4 days that Laf was involved, they put out as many hits on Evo as Rival has ALL SET.

I have barely commented on overall performance of our side or our allies this whole time. I am simply refuting your claims on a few points, which include the repeated dismissal of Laf's involvement, which I consider to be the single greatest contributor to your win this set. Who knows what would have happened if they didn't get involved. There's a good chance your guys would still have won, but we won't know that now, will we?


But whatever, 120-75 knowing that Sof had 90 last set and that Rival, Laf and possibly RD would be joining is just dastardly and despicable! This was never intended to be a 'fair war'. You guys don't do fair wars, why should we? This WAS intended to be as close to fair as possible while giving us the slight edge, so everyone and their dog wouldn't get involved.

What calling in Laf says to me is that Sof, the self-proclaimed greatest warring alliance in the game, can't handle starting from behind and at a slight disadvantage, and has to call in extra friends to give them a chance(after Rival joined, mind you).

thats it. i quit the internet.

from laf perspective, there was very limited aid sent through the war. most of it was in reaction to the aid sent by md, pdm, and whoever else aided. we stopped once we felt the fa sent was on equal footing. overall, i would say sem allies sent more aid than sof/rival allies.

as for laf hitting evo, tella you need to just listen to me. you and evo live longer that way instead of getting killed needlessly set after set.

Thanks Candyman. You are the best.

PS: RD sent more aid than Laf. Of this I am sure.

PPS: I just went through and copy pasted every single FA package Evo has received. Most of it is from MD, and not a single package was received from anyone other than PDM and MD. Obviously I can and have only been speaking on behalf of Evo. You'd have to actually ask a Sol head for their part.

There was nothing in your post I didn't respond to. You just aren't happy with the response.

Before the FS, Evo had superior countries. That isn't in dispute. You guys saved 50% of your turns to wargain. The dispute ofc is what happened afterward. My claim is that SoF had better countries than SoL which allowed us to outpace your side post LaF. This is a fact you backed up. I've already said these things, you are just repeating your claims.

You act as if LaF FSd all of SEM. They didn't.

Ah, the SoL took more damage argument. First, iScode already showed that SoF took just as much damage. Second, that doesn't change the fact SoL had poor country composition. That was also apparent in how you guys used your FA.

I already mentioned why LaF was called in. Who isn't responding to the other's posting? If you think ", so everyone and their dog wouldn't get involved" was the case, you need to either speak with your allies or be a bit more truthful.

Okay so 120 vs 90 was your estimate? Why not FS SoF with just either Monsters or Evo? That would have been a bit more even and give you the slight edge.

As for a challenge, SoF isn't afraid of that, ask MD.

Sol and Monsters had better countries also, that's what I'm saying. And while Evo was being smashed, Rival and Sof could spend ALL of their effort breaking and killing Sol's breakers.

2013-08-16 17:00 (1 hour before RIVAL FS):
EVO:
33 members
23,631,850 NW
716,116 ANW

RIVAL:
32 members
23,403,154 NW
731,348 ANW

(+1 member & 228696 nw for EVO)

2013-08-17 23:00 (about 30 min till LaF FS and about 29h after RIVAL FS)
EVO:
31 member
26,283,911 NW
847,868 ANW

RIVAL:
29 members
27,647,744 NW
953,370 ANW


All data taken from earthgraphs.
Comments. Your statement kinda incorrect (im so politely, i proud of myself). Next time try to check numbers before post.
Also, "nearly matched with them". Correct version: "nearly matched with them 240 turns behind us". Wich is perfectly can be seen 29h later (when we still had about 100-150 turns behind) with RIVAL being targeted and still 100K more ANW. RIVAL is sucks at netting, but not as much as you want show. We are better than SoL at least ;)

You're right about Sol :)

Not sure how my statement was incorrect. I was a tiny bit off on member counts, but you guys gained another 4 members since then. Maybe they hadn't tagged yet? I said nearly matched, and it was exactly that. This is despite the fact that you had 6 extra days to net and grow and prep, and we were already warring.

Not sure what this talk of turns is, since everyone receives the same amount of turns...especially at that early in the set.

LoL:) You told you had 2 members less and this stats shows you had 1 member more before FS and 2 more 29h after (before LaF enter). So, the part about members are incorrect. I dont think we was more than 34 at any point this reset. And anyways, about 4 of them almost inactive (you can see them with low NW), so i wouldnt count them.

Everyone recive same turns, but some alliances (and RIVAL is one of this alliances) save 120(120) turns before FS to make more damage at FS. So, at 2013-08-16 17:00 most of RIVAL countries was with 120(117) on hands. And EVO was at war for like 5 days, wich means they used all turns. Wich makes us 240 turns behind your countries.

So basically what I get out of this is that RD out FAd Laf despite being half their size. Hah. You all know you want to be my friend now!

ALL I GOT OUT OF THIS WAS THAT IF A HAMSTER IS RIDING IN A TRAIN AT 30 MILES PER HOUR GOING SOUTH EAST FROM PASSADINA AND A LEMURE IS RIDING A HELICOPTER GOING 50 MILES PER HOUR SOUTH WEST FROM NEW YORK THEN YOU HAVE A MATH PROBLEM WHICH DOESN"T INVOLVE EXPLOSIONS OR DIVISION BY ZERO. AND THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE, INCONCEIVABLE, AND POSSIBLY FILLED WITH RIBOFLAVENOIDS AND BOUNCING OF THE 4TH VARIETY (NO BALL SACK JOKES HERE). THE BBQ SHALL CONTINUE UNINTERUPTED.

HA!
JOE DANGER
IN CHARGE OF NOTHING
THE MIGHT CLAN [DANGER]!

hmm

I'll let you have the last word. Nothing else to add on my part.

To your most recent post tella (right after mine), SoL and SoF are about the same size, one could expect the same number of breakers.

However, SoF took an FS, was targeted by 45 more countries, and took the brunt of the attacks before LaF jumped in. I wouldn't be surprised if one would find that SoF's breaker numbers were much lower than SoL's. Or that Rival/SoF combined evened up the odds, with a slight edge to Rival/SoF.

Moreover, as time went on, the target selection made the the gap much much larger.

I dont think you know what the last word is

burn it with fire before it lays eggs!!

MD avg nw last reset = 62M. MD avg nw this reset = 73M nw.

Sensation. SoL best netters FAed MD to the top! Now we know why they were pacted. MD need SoL help to get more NW!