This makes me furious!!!! You believe obamacare will "take care of you"? Ha!, you're delusional if so!!!!

http://www.cnn.com/...olitics/va-waiting-lists/

I'm not sure that we can necessarily blame the Democrats for failing the veterans any more or less than we can blame the Republicans. If we're going to say that legislators failed the veterans, then they all failed the veterans. We can assign specific blame to President Obama because he knew about VA problems since he took office and has failed to achieve the necessary reforms. The buck stops with President Obama. Others in the administration may or may not have blame for this situation (depending on their duties), but President Obama has responsibility for it all. President Obama has failed the veterans.

However, you are correct in linking Obamacare to this. The VA is a government run healthcare system in the US. The idea of a single payer system which Obamacare is threatening to collapse into is comparable to the VA system. Health insurance itself is merely a cloak put around healthcare. Turning health insurance into a single payer system turns the healthcare system into an effectively government run healthcare system. Single payer system = government run healthcare system = the VA system.

Angel1, I beg to differ with you on at least one point. The Buck does not stop with Obama, it merely passes over his desk to some sacrificial bureaucrat. You don't really believe that Obama could make a mistake, or be wrong do you?

He will NEVER accept that he was wrong or mistaken, it is US who are wrong and mistaken and racist and obstructionist, and homophobic, and anti-gay marriage, and anti-abortion.

As far as the single payer system, if it is indeed run by the government, we are all doomed to extinction as the government is the least likely organization to make anything work efficiently. Haven't you ever heard of Governmentium? The heaviest element known to man?

The heaviest chemical element yet known to science. Governmentium (Gv) has 1 neutron, 12 assistant neutrons, 75 deputy neutrons, and 224 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.

These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons. Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert. However, it can be detected as it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact. A minute amount of Governmentium causes one reaction to take over four days to complete when it would normally take less than a second. Governmentium has a normal half-life of three years; it does not decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons exchange places.

In fact, Governmentium mass will actually increase over time, since each reorganization will cause some morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes.

When catalyzed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium--an element which radiates just as much energy as Governmentium since it has half as many peons but twice as many morons.
"Oh my God--Don't touch that!! It's Governmentium. My cousin Sal drank some mixed with Tang when he was a kid, and now he's a lawyer."

okay so the democrats run the VA

what government entities do the republicans run?

this post started out stupid, angel gave it some hope, and cerberus raised the level of stupidity tenfold

RIP thread, you never had a chance

Obviously you didn't read the article, I'm not surprised one bit :-)

From the article:

"If these allegations prove to be true, it is dishonorable, it is disgraceful, and I will not tolerate it, period," Obama said.

DAMN OBAMA AND HIS HORRIBLE POSITION ON THIS!

BTW, these practices are a result of a new performance measurement system put in place under George W. Bush in 2006:

Source: http://www.va.gov/...009/VAOIG-08-00879-36.pdf

In FY 2006, VHA established a performance measure to monitor and track the number of missed opportunities for schedul
ed outpatient appointments. The measure was included in the Veterans Integrated Service Network (VISN) Directors’ Performance Plans. This measure identified the percentage of scheduled appointments that facility personnel did not use because the patients did not show up for their appointments. VHA also included those appointments in this measure that were canceled by the patient and clinic, but VHA staff did not enter the cancellations into the Veterans Health Information Systems and Technology Architecture (VistA) scheduling package until after the appointment times.


I think we have proven, many many times, that if you put in place a performance-based compensation system without funding or designing adequate oversight or thinking through and combating conflicts-of-interest -- you will get misbehavior.

We're seeing this in Education with the standardized testing scandals where teachers change student answers to improve school test scores. It is an inherent conflict-of-interest (those administering and handling the tests are paid on the results) and a poorly designed system.

They funded a system in 2006-2009 to track all no-shows, missed appointments, wait times, etc. People subsequently figured out how to game that system. It sucks. It needs to be fixed. But suggesting that Obama "created" the problem is nuts.

Keep digging, you'll find dems behind it all ;-)

fluffING BUSH! ASSHOLE REPUBLICANS! OBAMA WONT TOLERATE THIS! ITS OBAMA'S FAULT. OBAMA IS MAKING THING WORSE! BUSH STARTED IT! OBAMA AND BUSH HATE VETERANS.......

STFU

Let's kill all the lawyers (politicians)

They want you to believe it's an us vs. them mentality (liberal vs conservative) to overshadow the fact they don't want us to consider... it's them (politicians) vs. us (Americans). Until we realize this as a country, the politicians and their greed control this country... not the people.

It is more of an issue that we have new war vets going there for treatment, but there was no additional staffing to handle that..... which is because we went to war with a country for no good reason, and forgetting about a war that was started because of 9/11...... since those wars were both the brain child of a dem president, it is all a dems fault... wait.. what?

Well, he did promise to end both wars if you recall.

But that's really neither here nor there. The reality of that matter is that VA has been f-ed up for some time spanning several Presidencies. They have always had a horrible reputation and the various IGs have pointed it out over the years. And then nothing happens.

Obama's one among a string of Presidents to deal with them and little to nothing will change. That's the sad truth.

Last I knew both wars were started by President Bush

US Presidents don't start wars.

Ddog--- that one did.

Invin--- i know. That was a joke

Trumper-- true.. but u cant end a war by turning off a switch. Especially when it is basically an occupation..

The VA has been fluffing vets for years... this is not a party issue, its a government issue.

The blame game for this is stupid. The policy change was made under Bush, one of its biggest critics at the time was Obama, he even mentioned it in 07 on the campain trail...

This is not a rep vs dem thing, it is a byproduct of government running things that should not be government run.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I love the modern political concept of collective blame. A few assholes in one hospital fluff up and the whole political system is to blame. My dad gets phenomenal care from the VA and crows about it at every opportunity. As do two of my co-workers. Your mileage may vary, thats how the world is sometimes.

I'm not sure when objectivity died in America, but I doubt if it was the VA that killed it.

+10



Agreed. These problems have been going on longer than Obama has been in office and is utterly embarrassing. These men/women risked their lives in serving the country, the least we can do is give excellent, prompt care on their return.

Excellent care isnt the issue...when they get care it is good care. It is a matter of actually getting it.

This is not an isolated thing. It has been documented for nearly a decade, that we know of. And prior to that it was a different mess. It was just swept under the rug for later

bah humbug. the demoncrats stick it to everyone that isn't a current member of their particularly bizarre socialist union. why should they exclude veterans that they don't take the time to cry over?

The sooner people realize a two party system no longer works, the better, both Republicans and Democrats are bought out, the fact that people blame one side or the other is keeping them in office... start shaking things up, don't stick to a registered party, refuse to be labeled a democrat, or republican.. the moment to put a label to your vote you are doomed.

Without trying to make this a political issue, I want to comment that this surprises me in a good way. I have had some line of sight to VA issues in the past and this is one of the rare positive stories I have heard.

I feel our country collectively does a great job of turning soldiers into veterans but does a poor job of taking care of veterans' needs.

Trife, you're a douchebag in both sides of any story, you know that?

The main problem is that the lawyers have coopted the government to work for the lawyers, not the people.

Every stinkin' politician is a lawyer. When we end the professional politician class of lawyers running the freaking government things will get better.

In the beginning, elected representatives represented a cross-section of American professions, farmers, carpenters, businessmen, plumbers, doctors, teachers, laborers, etc. Now, they are ALL lawyers and have learned through various schools of thought the BEST way to lie and keep getting elected, nothing more. Most of them aren't there to do anything for the people, they are there for the power, influence, bribes and paycheck/benefits.

If the elected representatives had to go to the VA for healthcare, fluff would get fixed pretty damn quickly. As it is now, they couldn't care less with their premium highly expensive healthcare system that is set up just for them, along with being able to vote yourself a raise, and grade your own accomplishments.

The two party system is a big part of the problem too. They become best buddies once a third party candidate is threatening to make it onto the ballot, and suddenly they are both filing suits to keep them off.

What more would you like to see to prove that this is how it is screwing us day in and day out?

Trife and people like him are the major reason behind the failure of the representative form of government that we have. Too lazy to look into things themselves, as evidenced by his failure to actually read the link KoH posted, and just start running his mouth with ZERO information to hand. He Votes the same way and the liberals know it, thus he is one of their golden boys, while I am probably in the Main Core database several dozen times. Because I pay attention to the stupid goings on on capitol hill, and am willing to call a liar a liar, and I don't give a fluff if he calls me a racist in return. The proof is in the actions, not the words.

I am sorry that I volunteered to serve this country when there are so many imbeciles and morons that really didn't deserve to have me do that who are running loose in this country trying to VOTE away MY LIBERTY, after I FOUGHT for theirs.

fluff YA'LL

I love stirring up fluff LOL

http://www.va.gov/vetdata/Expenditures.asp

http://www.cbo.gov/...5/07-27-va_healthcare.pdf

Interesting links.

I had always assumed that the vet population had been increasing due to the wars, turns out that is very far from the truth.

The vet population has been on a steady decline while the funding has exploded and the cost to treat the new age vets is projected to be drastically lower than the old vets.

Why is this information important?

It shows that it is not lack of funding, not lack of doctors, not lack of regulations that are at the root of the issues at the VA.
The issues within the VA are corruption, incompetence, and lack of accountability. The very things that then Senator Obama (as well as President-elect) made a point of saying he was going to fix.

I am not saying the buck stops with him, because we all know there have been issues going on with the VA for decades, but he has been informed on multiple occasions that there have been issues, serious issues that were swept under the rug. For him, and congress to act as if this is breaking news to them is pathetic at best.

This is a problem of bureaucracy getting in the way of doctors helping patients with too many regulations and hoops to jump through under the name of "clearing up the system, and oversight"

There needs to be limited oversight, but not to the extent that it is.

Have you ever actually received care from the VA? The care is far from good. I wouldn't even call the care adequate.

Everything else I agree with. Took me 2.5 years to see a specialist for my knee issues. They proposed some odd ball surgery, with like a year recovery. I got second opinion from private practice. They recommended physical therapy, which worked and I was better in less than 6 weeks.

From what I can tell from actual vets, my story isn't unique.

it shows that the current healthcare costs required to keep old people alive exceeds their entire lifetime earnings by around 300%. how i check my math? should be a dang math checker on this phone. wtf?

And you wonder why socialist healthcare systems like Germany are shipping their elderly off to "retirement communities" in lesser developed countries for cheap healthcare....

hahahahha that post was great

The Affordable Care Act is nothing like single-payer. That is actually my biggest issue with it.

Yea, if we didn't have a military, we wouldn't even HAVE veterans! :)

+1; the US health system is a disaster; the affordable care act is a patchy bandaid....

Preferential ballot!

They did this to jewish people circa 1943 as well...

fluff_conservatives_believe.txt

Far more canadians die waiting for healthcare than vets die in the US waiting for care.

The problems in Canada are a manufactured crisis; the Conservatives have been cutting funding to things such as health care and the postal service and then saying they're failures when there's suddenly problems....

Our vets don't die waiting for healthcare, they just commit suicide.

You don't think it is actually happening?

You wanna know why I know socialized medicine doesnt work? I can do math

Which is why healthcare should not be a service provided by the government. No government is effective or efficient at providing even basic services. Why would you want them to handle complex ones?

Which is why healthcare should not be a service provided by the government. No government is effective or efficient at providing even basic services. Why would you want them to handle complex ones?

Gg

You are obviously not following this story. It's MUCH larger than 1 hospital. There are currently more than 10 of them under investigation.

If you don't know what you're talking about, or are misinformed due to your own inability to research the issue, STFU!

The cost of most treatments in the us far exceeds the cost for the same treatments in other countries....and Americans don't even get better care, despite the massive price premium.

tellarion is right. Our Healthcare system is riddled with corruption, overcharges and assorted shortings on care for the sake of insurance company profits. If you believe that the insurance companies didn't have a hand in writing the ACA, I've got some lovely beach side property for sale in Nevada. It's just awaiting development by having the Ocean move closer by having California Fall off into the pacific when the next big one hits.

The healthcare system is full of middlemen each of them slicing off a portion of the payments to put into their own pockets rather than actually pay for healthcare. And in every instance all the middle man does is shuffle papers and money back and forth.

If we could cut that guy out of the system, the nation's healthcare would be a LOT more efficient and certainly a lot cheaper without having to pay some moron 100K plus a year to move papers from one box on his desk to anotherk, and have the bank transfer money from one account to another. Not to mention his overhead, which also must be paid for out of hte policy holders account payments, of course.

But cerb, here's the paradox with what you just said: how can we cut the middleman out without moving to a singlepayer system?? You don't trust the government, and you don't trust the insurance companies...so who is going to streamline the system and remove the middlemen?

Catastrophic Care insurance...and paying for all the other care yourself....in other words you pay the care provider.

A number of care providers in the US will offer significant discounts on care...if they don't have to deal with any insurance, be it government or private.

I feel healthy, so I don't think I need to go to the doctor for a checkup. Oh..turns out I have cancer that could have been treated if it had been caught earlier...guess I'll go in for the emergency surgery and chemo flufftail!

Preventative care = less expensive.

not if i chose the drop dead option. why are you required to get it treated? just get some life insurance and make the insurance companies actually pay some money out for a change.

Disagree; there merely needs to be rules in place which prevent governments from gutting or underfunding programs they don't like to make them seem ineffective. Redefine doing so as Treason perhaps!? =D