I've seen a lot of talk about whose fault this war was. Yes, it was a some Thomas' fault by interpretting our own policy incorrectly, but to say PDM was not at fault either would be a bit absurd at the least.

PDM knew there were other people to contact besides Thomas, yet I was not messaged until an hour prior to your FS by Archaic (and we hardly had believed the problem had escalated to the point where more than one point man was necessary). That break-down in communication surely can be attributed to both sides. Detmer knows how to contact me, and I him. TAN apparently is fond of me, and also knows how to contact me, and I him, but neither made any attempt to contact me or Fudgepuppy.

At this point comes into the factor of capable deduction. If PDM truly believed that we were ready for war, the theory would have been debunked by a simple couple of spy ops. It would have shown zero war prep and zero turn saving.

So, we're left with a couple reasons why PDM really warred us:
1) Showing that you have some balls in a set where netting didn't matter too much to give it up (very few netters to compete with).
2) Shoving it to Thomas, and using as an excuse a pretty typical negotation method in FA (mention of possible escalation).

Granted there are a couple more reasons, but in order for them to be true, we'd have to assume every leader in PDM was absolutely daft, and I'm not looking to talk trash in this thread, so I'd rather not waste time exploring them.

PDM may say it was to prove a point or show they wouldn't back down. Which may have very well been said simply by contacting someone other than Thomas, and working out a DNH (like PDM did with LCN just a day or two prior), or killing the offending country. Would this have likely led to the same situation as we are in now? Who is to say really? Multiple times in the last two plus years we've avoided FSing PDM because we felt it would do a large amount of internal damage and threaten their continued existence. Do I regret that now? No, not really, because each time we avoided hitting PDM, we felt it was a decision which benefitted the game as a whole by not chasing away players. It's good to see PDM continues to be an alliance operating in a very participatory way in the server/community, however unfortunate it may be that they did not push for workarounds to this very situation when the member counts were turned.

The point of the war is lost in almost any war when a larger alliance pummels a smaller alliance, because for the smaller alliance to survive effectively, it must do everything it can to win. As Detmer told me in PDM's view, "we want to win as decisively as possible" two days ago. It sounds as though PDM still feels they're the small alliance backed into a corner when that is not really the case. And surely, if Detmer's comments are the way PDM, as a whole, feels, then they must understand the rationale behind LCN becoming involved in the war, behind the KSF tagjumpers. We too want to win as decisively as possible. Is it any less honorable than hitting an alliance half your size when other avenues of resolve were avaiable? That's a question rather subjective to each individuals bias, I'm sure. I don't think PDM's actions, nor ours have been entirely honorable, to be quite honest.

It's lost on me how PDM did not know that LCN would become involved in this war though. I'm not sure whether PDM has just not been into the politics of war for quite some time and forgot, or whether they were wanting to draw LCN into conflict as well. Every set Sanct reaches out to its DPs and asks how SancT can better position itself in pacting and gameplay approach to benefit the livelihood of our allies. We have shown many times that we will come to our DPs aid no questions asked, no matter the point, so long as we are able to. SancT did exactly this last set when LCN asked to send a message to SOL, and we forfeited any plans we had for the set to do so. To think LCN would not to the same for us is either an insult to their character as loyal allies or just plain poor foresight. In my opinion, it seems poor foresight followed by the insult, considering PDM has been prodding and *threatening* them to get a pact for the last two days, but did not prior to the FS on SancT (it also probably didn't benefit PDM that the same issues which annoy SancT are the same that have annoyed LCN -- the source of the PDM DNH signing prior to this debacle).

An hour prior to hitting LCN, PDM tried for a last chance of wiggling out of what they knew would be a bad outcome for them, by trying to bring us a cease-fire (although, to someone without any authority to even sign one). TAN tried to say the point was made, but TAN knows the point is actually lost. Once LCN joined, SancTer's wouldn't be concentrated on the issue which caused the war anymore; it would become about revenge for the lost top 10 possibilities, about getting to unite with allies for what will look to be another exciting war, and about coming out on top.

For those of you that think I should come out and castrate Thomas publicly on AT, you won't get it. Thomas does FA to the SancT standard I've always asked for; playing hardball for the policies and pact webs we craft to protect and benefit our players and allies. In this situation, he made a mistake and it resulted in a poor fallout, but I, and the rest of SancT know his intentions were not to get us into war and he has acknowledge his mistake internally and apologized to our members for it. When he acknowledged his mess up to PDM prior to their FS, PDM later said it was "too late," that prep had already begun and their netting was ruined. Yet in another breath more recently, PDM had said war would have been averted if he had apologized. TAN coming to us for a CF couldn't help but make me think of that very chain of events. If TAN had requested it with a more sensible approach, admitting that the FS may not have been the best way to handle the situation, and if he had actually given more than an hours notice for the CF offer, I may have very well accepted it and been able to save LCN from having to enter the war at all.

The simple fact is that PDM has committed wrong in ways, just the same as Sanct is not innocent in this matter either, but I'm tired of seeing this image being painted as 100% Sanct's fault.

Finally, I must give a big thank you to our good allies in LCN for giving up their peaceful netting in order to come to our aid and help salvage our set from what was otherwise going to be a rather depressing last couple weeks. Thanks much guys.

tl;dr

damn you AxA my tree's were growing so nicely to...i was enjoying my netting to the fullest extent...and i planed to nuke silver at some point... <3 silver

Initial impressions is that your post is reasonable, but has a few small errors in it. I'll respond more after work!

wow what a long post ;P

Actually, you're not allowed to respond to this thread TAN, otherwise you must self-delete.

Sorry bro, it's an unwritten law~

That's what she said. Glad you felt the same, it means a lot coming from a guy named hanlong~

I like the candor. It would be nice if, regardless of the differences between them, people could agree to common failures and move on amicably and without insult. Even if there are still some disputes about every point, this thread is a step in the right direction. Kudos.

+1


Although LCN and PDM have had minor conflicts from time to time, I consider our relationship to be quite amicable overall. It's too bad that it came to this, but I don't believe anyone in LCN is harboring any permanent ill-will towards PDM. Good luck to you guys!

Some points i take out of this if i was PDM:

1.) Why should PDM have to contact another FA other than Thomas? surely what Thomas says is representative of Sanct's official position? If he was authorised to do FA, then his opinion is Sanct's opinion, and PDM have every right to act/react/whatever based on that assumption. It is not their duty to find "the right" sanct FA. It is sanct's duty to provide competent FA's.

2.) I think it is entirely unfair that you expect PDM to act in a certain way, and yet expect Thomas to act in a completly different way.

3.) You admit here that Thomas blatently lied in his FA dealings with PDM, where he threatened war, especially if he had no intention of bringing about war. This means Thomas cannot do FA in the future for Sanct as no-one can take anything he says to be truthful. + i doubt any alliance will be prepared to deal with him, knowing that other Sanct FA's will handle the issue much more sensibly.



I personally think that the issue at hand for sanct here is that you have allowed people who are inadequate for the job at hand to take over important positions in Sanct, and the alliance is suffering as a result. However i can see you may not ahve any choice if there is no-one within who is prepared to step up instead of someone like thomas, or no-one who can. I feel for you, as it is a predicament i am completly familiar with myself.

As for LCN & PDM. I tend to agree that surely PDM would know that LCN will hit them in defence of Sanct, and to have any issue with it is stupid of course. But to be fair to PDM i don't think i've seen any of them have any issue with it on the boards? no idea if privately they been bleating like sheep:p

These things happen, it's just part of the game. On the plus side i think PDM are prob the sort of guys that when next set rolls around, a new set is a new set:p and will prob not have any issues:p

oh disclaimer: my opinion should be read as a friend of PDM not as a neutral if it appears slightly bias.

Cheers!

isn't that long... go to a forum of economy and you will die :P

Back to the issues

Is good to know the history of this war, but I think PDM has been consistent with the way they deal with this kind of problems

I remember last set SoL aka Jiman told PDM they wouldn't accept L:L on a Retal, and PDM pretty much told them to stufu because they enforced a 80% L:L policy, and if PDM didn't back down to SoL, I can hardly believe Sanct actually thought they would do it now.

Also this war is not this Simple AxAlar.

I think this war is as much about Policies as it is about leadership issues.

How many issues have been caused by PDM/Sanct policies colliding in the last few sets?

Just 2 sets ago there was a silly issue, that escalated and turned into something pretty bad.

a PDMer hits a Sanct country
Sanct Retals and gets +100% land, yet claims the last 3 weeks of the set had just started, so they hit once again.
PDM calls bullfluff and calls the second Retal a hit, and thus Retals.
Sanct calls BS and calls it a RoR and thus retal accordingly (200%? L:L)
PDM goes and Retals those hits
PDM and Sanct reach a deal.

PDM gets hit
Sanct FA pays the difference
Sanct member goes crazy and Farms the FA country
PDM offers Reps/Land to the country of the FA.


******

and then Last Set there were issues again... but fluff is 3 AM and I need to sleep.

AxAlar your policy is simply too harsh and gets way too many people pissed.

Why push for a Second hit if 95% of the land (not counting Ghost) was taken?

I mean if we didn't have Ghost acres, then I would agree with the policy, but most of the time it seems you people want to be fluffs for no reason, Hitting is no longer a net negative like in the old days, it is a net positive, so why go out of your way to completely screw the other guy?


Ok I just can't stop now...

--------



Why screw the untagged? they already got it hard enough without you trying to limit their retal window to 24 ours



Let me ask you something, if Sanct does L:L why the hell you need to escalate hits? you should pick one, you either escalate the hits, or you go L:L, this policy makes it look like you want to use the one that will reap the most benefits in the situation.





I think PDM forced your own policy against you last set, just to show you how skewed and spiteful it is, a grab during the last 3 weeks, a grab in the last 6 days of the set, a grab during the third week of the set there is no difference in neither of them, you either steal stock or you don't, if stock was stolen, then you should make FA contact and deal with it, not just make a policy that is sure to screw the offender 100% of the time, you may as well rename the policy (only hit people with stock on hand), not wait that is also out, because you would demand even more than 150/250% L:L.



Pretty much a clear punch to the face that you are out to rape anyone and everyone that dares to look you funny.


Ia m fluffing out...

fluff I need to sleep

didn't notice the KSF landgrabbers.

i take back the nice things i said about LCN.

that is pathetic.

Just my responses to the following:



This is to stop people abusing being untagged at the start of a set, drawing some attacks, then tagging up and pumping jets for the retals.



We only do L:L for topfeeds, so that the defending country can regain their own land from a smaller country which will most likely be under-defended.




A grab in those last 3 weeks, regardless of stock lost or anything, has great potential to damage a country's finish. Even if the country gets their land back or slightly more, their final NW can still be significantly damaged.



Generally clans will have a policy which resembles ours quite closely, so this is just to cover our bases.

*plots to steal Trifey*

Someone summarise the first post into 3-5 sentences for me please. Then ill read it.

LCN is being called in because Thomas thought he could bully TAN.

.

well Thomas is ur fa, so he is the face of ur alliance to other alliances, so pdm has done their job by contacting your fa to get the problem resolved. too bad that you picked an fa that put his personal issue more than his alliance best interest.

coming from personal experience, when another clan try to enforce sanct policy onto themselves, they wouldn'accept it. I did retal them according to their 3 weeks bs policy, but they rored it claiming they wouldn't a accept it. o had to deal with lost of land just not to strain the relationship between 2 clans.

lastly, surely all sanct fa's are aware of the situation and budget between Thomas and pdm but noone tried to contact pdm fa and amend the situation to avoid war.

Pew pew pew, lasers

*surrenders to tisya*

AxA-- Was it or was it not a fluff move to use your tag jumpers? We let them live because, in my opinion, we were showing grace. I felt we should have killed them but our leaders said no because they were showing good faith that they would not jump back into this war. It's too bad you used KSF like you did because in my eyes it makes them look bad.

And one other thing, what was to stop you from contacting them when you saw how the communication was going on AT? You set back and watched it unfold then later say we could have contacted you... Just a thought.

You called LCN because you had no choice, I get that. We basically had you to the point of just manhandling you. I could care less if LCN kills us or us them, but what I don't like is the cheapness of the tag jumpers.

It is too bad LCN couldn't netgain this set, but it is what it is. At the end of the day PDM will always have fun playing: win, lose, or draw. If there is ever a time that I don't have fun I'm outtie 2000.

I'll see you on the battlefield.

Oh Trifey, that was too easy! You could've resisted just a little. Then I could've tied you up!

you still can :)

I will tell you one thing, those tag jumpers from ksf to lcn did not let anyone know they were going to war prep. they said they wanted to salvage their netting set. They did not want to war.

KSF was blindsided by the fact that they were going to jump to another tag. Since KSF and Sanct are friendly, KSF said "sure, you can come and net it out over here."

instead they were told afterwards "we are just war prepping and we are going to go back."

I believe you when you say KSF didn't know, but should KSF kill them since they took the responsibility of them and convinced PDM not to kill them?

Worth a thought at least. It also shows you how "friendly" they are with you... If they are willing to hang you out and make you look so bad without any hesitation. And it was premeditated too so when they told you that they knew they were deceiving you!

I can't resist here.

This whole thing is ridiculous.

It's as clear as night follows day that PDM has man'd up here and said "you can't threaten war". Detmer is far from stupid and he knows his pact list and what happened last reset re LCN/Sanct v SOL. Plus PDM were pretty much a shoe in for TNW.

You know what? Frankly I don't think PDM gives a damn. You can't go around threatening war and then being shocked when someone hits you.

If PDM steps up here and takes on LCN/Sanct and beats them (or goes close), then I'm sorry but that;s absolutely amazing - and frankly the type of ballsy move that is missing in Earth these days. If PDM calls someone in to even the no.s meh. Fair fight.

To many people hide behind allies (no offence meant here to Sanct, clearly you were entitled to call someone in).

I've not seen any fluffing on AT from PDM (unlikely almost every other alliance at war this set), so I'm not really sure what your point is.

You tried to bluff (clearly since you admit you had no intention of going to war) - they called. Next time... don't play poker with PDM because you know they can call you at anytime.

Pretty simple.

oh and on the tag jumpers KSF should kill them or whoever is policing for PDM.

interesting read.

ArsenalMD, you make sense, thats how I read it too. :)

sort of educational...so, no spoils please...

Summarized the original post for the rest of you.

Arsenal is dead on.

This is not a mutual blame thing. Sure, PDM could have tried more avenues to avoid this - but why is the burden on us to go behind the backs of one of your three heads? Not trying to weasel FA work is not the same as being culpable for the threats of one of your heads.

LCN are amazingly honorable allies and I am really sorry they had to sleep in the bed you made.

Sanct should have just looked inward and accepted that they earned what happened to them without ruining LCN's only reprieve from war for a year.

Just because there is a silver lining of this being a more interesting war does not mean calling them in is justified. I say that out of regret for them. PDM is up for the fight. I am glad we didn't ceasefire beforehand (whoever offered that) because then we would have given up our round for two days of war.

We will detah the countries of PDM in order to liberate ZEN from the evil clutches of PDM.

Oh, and I'll probably kidnap Tisya while I'm pillaging, too.

Trife
Rescuer of ZEN
Taker of Tisya
Idiot of Epic Proportions

tl;dr much....

all i took away from it was that it's thomas' fault and that he cost LCN, sanct and PDM their netting rounda.

LCN is still pretty lame for letting those sanct/ksf tag jumpers come in, though. otherwise, solid effort.

heh i read some of the followup posts from others, and it looks like PDM has nearly 100% support from non-collab/LCN ppl....

moral of the story is that if you're going to spin you can't make it a tl;dr post, i guess?

also, good call on banning thomas from AT -- too bad you let him run wild as long as you did.

sorry guys. as a former sancter and current ksf'r i tried to vouch for the guys who tagged over. these guys had legit chances to finish well and they have always like to net. it makes me and the rest of ksf look bad because of what they did. I dont like it anymore than you guys.

KSF should step up and kill those countries.."IMO"

Well, if you don't want to look bad, then rectify the situation by killing off the tag jumpers.

AxA you're wasting your breath. You know how AT is, once they get an idea in their head they don't let go.

I posted the entire conversation I had with TAN, not once did I threaten war. I simply stated we would not bend over, that it's their choice if they want to escalate things, and joked about buying tanks for their FS. None of which is a threat of war.

I overlooked a part of our retal policy, that every other PDM leader also overlooked until a third party posted about it on these boards. I admitted my mistake.

But these "hate Thomas" posts are getting pretty redundant. You can hate me for the way I do FA, but it's the way I've always done it in Sanct and it has always worked. In this instance I was actually less confrontational than I usually am and didn't even threaten war.

Quotes:

'If you want this to escalate into something, you know I have no issues doing that. The ball is in your court. But we aren't going to play the "PDM's retal policy is the only one that matters" game with you. Not going to happen.'

'And we've never backed down and never will. So even though our guys want to net, they know we'll go to war if necessary and have no complaints. I'll tell them to buy Tanks for the PDM FS.'

Where did I threaten war? I know this AT hate-on-Thomas game with a bunch of bullfluff spin. But where did I threaten war? I contacted TAN, Detmer, Archaic about this matter at the same exact time. If I wanted this to go to war, it would be much easier for me to not bother making contact and actually refuse to answer their attempts, right?

You can side with PDM, Detmer, TAN, I don't care. But to pin this entire thing on me is a fluffing joke, bottom line. Just because they can't read between the lines I'm at fault? We've been dealing with each other for several resets, our policies have not changed in that timeframe. Now all of a sudden there is an issue with a SINGLE country and they FS us over it, because of some supposed war threats? They were pretty quick to jump the gun on that, don't you think? But let's all chalk it up to PDM not taking any bullying, from a tag that is 50% smaller than them. Right on :rollseyes:

Funny you did not address the tag jumpers.

SPIN THOMAS SPIN!!!

DANCE DANCE DANCE

seriously, Thomas... don't threaten others with war if you don't want war.

it's your fault regardless of how you want to spin it :p

there are very few wars that you can actually attribute to a single person and this is unfortunately one of them.

the only way that it's not entirely blamable on you is because other sanct leaders didn't even attempt to help clean up the mess you made, so they have a role in this too i guess

Here comes John.

wait, are you serious Axalar? it's PDM's job to contact you when you made a mistake? then it's their job to put up with your fluff FA team?

hmmm, why is Pang going off on dagga here?

dagga's here?

meh, i qualify those statements as registered trademarks for people to use in response to dagga.

ok... you keep on doing that then...

Quotes:

'If you want this to escalate into something, you know I have no issues doing that. The ball is in your court. But we aren't going to play the "PDM's retal policy is the only one that matters" game with you. Not going to happen.'

'And we've never backed down and never will. So even though our guys want to net, they know we'll go to war if necessary and have no complaints. I'll tell them to buy Tanks for the PDM FS.'

Where did I threaten war? I know this AT hate-on-Thomas game with a bunch of bullfluff spin. But where did I threaten war? I contacted TAN, Detmer, Archaic about this matter at the same exact time. If I wanted this to go to war, it would be much easier for me to not bother making contact and actually refuse to answer their attempts, right?

You can side with PDM, Detmer, TAN, I don't care. But to pin this entire thing on me is a fluffing joke, bottom line. Just because they can't read between the lines I'm at fault? We've been dealing with each other for several resets, our policies have not changed in that timeframe. Now all of a sudden there is an issue with a SINGLE country and they FS us over it, because of some supposed war threats? They were pretty quick to jump the gun on that, don't you think? But let's all chalk it up to PDM not taking any bullying, from a tag that is 50% smaller than them. Right on :rollseyes:

[/quote]

Guys... He was just talking about playing paddy cakes... I can't believe our FA team and leaders didn't catch on to this sooner... As the great Bimini would say... "oh u"

I do hope I get my 4 bonus points for posting this set...

Dragonlance and KingKaos brought up some points that have to be addressed sometime concerning PDM/SancT relations. There seems to be consistent problems with retal disputes and miscommunication on both ends every set.