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Gerdler

Member
4129

Feb 18th 2021, 1:50:55

There are no complicated suggestions. But we have to be able to discuss why some suggestions create loopholes, flaws or bad game environment like the one we discussed above that I explained why it would open the door to cheaters in a big way.
I don't want added mechanisms that make new forms cheating very potent and easy to get away with, maybe that is only me?

This accomplishes the same things without making collusion more potent, while also spreading out hits more and having positive market effects:
Originally posted by Gerdler:
SUG *hitting outside humanitarians range triggers a warning message and a prompt that allows you to hit anyway at a cost of 1% of your military(troops jets turrets tanks) and 0.5% of your tech points. COSTLY, but sometimes worth it, depending on market conditions.

This would NOT cause a bigger concentration of hits, it would spread out the hits, if you need me to explain this further I will.

KoHeartsGPA

Member
EE Patron
25,269

Feb 18th 2021, 2:11:08

Yeah that's important we don't break the server, I do believe that the C:C DR needs an update so that it discourages what #4 is doing this set, he's exploiting humanitarian range plus getting massive rewards farming people, he's untouchable to them and it literally is case in point the issue in this server, it doesn't get more in your face than that.
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Gerdler

Member
4129

Feb 18th 2021, 2:30:58

There are a lot of others 'exploiting' the humanitarians range. I estimate I do it half the sets I play or so. It's a mechanism the game has and the players will use it. I wouldn't even call it unfair, if someone invests in being untouchable and manages to do that he outplayed the other guy, fair and square. I would just call it a design issue that its so punishing to be in the wrong end of that.

Looking closer at #4 and #37 they have never been out of humanitarians range tho so that doesn't qualify as anything like this. #26 hit #4 6 times and #25 hit him 4 times as well. To me it looks like he is just a good target that doesn't retal.

KoHeartsGPA

Member
EE Patron
25,269

Feb 18th 2021, 2:45:55

I thought we were looking to make the server more everyone friendly....I never claimed it was unfair to use available tools/game mechanics, the topic is about the server being fun, and it isn't if you're $3m NW and a $11m NW country farms you and you can't do fluff about it and then he comes back couple days later 🤷
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
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Rob

Member
1024

Feb 18th 2021, 3:05:18

Countries like #4 has nothing to do with humanitarian range - he just got big, got plenty of SDI and military & thus is untouchable for his targets, not because of humanitarians.

That's just good play.

He can go on farming most of the server without much worry because of how he set his country up (which takes investment in SDI that most others dont want to pay for), and there's nothing wrong with that, nor should any change stop that.

KoHeartsGPA

Member
EE Patron
25,269

Feb 18th 2021, 3:13:00

Originally posted by Rob:
Countries like #4 has nothing to do with humanitarian range - he just got big, got plenty of SDI and military & thus is untouchable for his targets, not because of humanitarians.

That's just good play.

He can go on farming most of the server without much worry because of how he set his country up (which takes investment in SDI that most others dont want to pay for), and there's nothing wrong with that, nor should any change stop that.



Absolutely he's playing stellar, nobody can deny that, but you're missing the point, how to make it fun for everyone, I mean... Am I alone here putting myself in the shoes of the bottom dwellers??? LOL 😂😂
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
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Tmac

Member
286

Feb 18th 2021, 3:22:01

We could give everyone a frickin medal koh, lol =P

Rob

Member
1024

Feb 18th 2021, 3:30:23

Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
Originally posted by Rob:
Countries like #4 has nothing to do with humanitarian range - he just got big, got plenty of SDI and military & thus is untouchable for his targets, not because of humanitarians.

That's just good play.

He can go on farming most of the server without much worry because of how he set his country up (which takes investment in SDI that most others dont want to pay for), and there's nothing wrong with that, nor should any change stop that.



Absolutely he's playing stellar, nobody can deny that, but you're missing the point, how to make it fun for everyone, I mean... Am I alone here putting myself in the shoes of the bottom dwellers??? LOL 😂😂



I'm not missing the point, i think the point is clear as i did mention that way around the start of this thread.
But i think making a point needs to be grounded in facts, otherwise you're finding the solutions to the wrong problems.

I think we are getting somewhere tbh - for one, the extra acres should help everyone including those towards the wrong end of the leaderboard.

The improved player guidance as suggested by Hessman is another one which would definitely help.

KoHeartsGPA

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EE Patron
25,269

Feb 18th 2021, 3:31:19

Patron shields!
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
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KoHeartsGPA

Member
EE Patron
25,269

Feb 18th 2021, 3:35:56

Originally posted by Rob:
Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
Originally posted by Rob:
Countries like #4 has nothing to do with humanitarian range - he just got big, got plenty of SDI and military & thus is untouchable for his targets, not because of humanitarians.

That's just good play.

He can go on farming most of the server without much worry because of how he set his country up (which takes investment in SDI that most others dont want to pay for), and there's nothing wrong with that, nor should any change stop that.



Absolutely he's playing stellar, nobody can deny that, but you're missing the point, how to make it fun for everyone, I mean... Am I alone here putting myself in the shoes of the bottom dwellers??? LOL 😂😂



I'm not missing the point, i think the point is clear as i did mention that way around the start of this thread.
But i think making a point needs to be grounded in facts, otherwise you're finding the solutions to the wrong problems.

I think we are getting somewhere tbh - for one, the extra acres should help everyone including those towards the wrong end of the leaderboard.

The improved player guidance as suggested by Hessman is another one which would definitely help.


Yeah and for added bonus, dwarf C:C DR, with those kind of returns even I that feels bad about hitting same guy 3 times in a week span am inclined to say "fluff it, send it" I mean, don't those returns look fluffing delicious???? Come on now, admit you're thinking about it too!!!
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

Gerdler

Member
4129

Feb 18th 2021, 4:08:53

C:C DR is designed to stop 2 people landtrading only with eachothers. I think it did that. It also adds an extra layer of complexity to grabbing which Im all for.

Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
I thought we were looking to make the server more everyone friendly....I never claimed it was unfair to use available tools/game mechanics, the topic is about the server being fun, and it isn't if you're $3m NW and a $11m NW country farms you and you can't do fluff about it and then he comes back couple days later 🤷

But if we change the 4x range to 3x the same thing will happen wont it? There will be fewer targets even so even more farmage on the ones in range. If the server had 12x range like team, FFA, Express, 1a wouldn't the people who are now getting farmed be hit less?
So in terms of spreading out the hits, increasing the range to 1/12th - 12x would be helpful, while narrowing down the range would be detrimental.

You have not commented on my suggestion. It makes multi-taps rarer, it makes the markets better, it spreads out the hits between more players. Isn't that good? It's not going to solve every problem at once ofc. But doesn't it take us in the right direction? Does it open the door for some kind of cheating? Is it balanced? Costs need adjustments?

KoHeartsGPA

Member
EE Patron
25,269

Feb 18th 2021, 4:35:25

Originally posted by Gerdler:
C:C DR is designed to stop 2 people landtrading only with eachothers. I think it did that. It also adds an extra layer of complexity to grabbing which Im all for.

Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
I thought we were looking to make the server more everyone friendly....I never claimed it was unfair to use available tools/game mechanics, the topic is about the server being fun, and it isn't if you're $3m NW and a $11m NW country farms you and you can't do fluff about it and then he comes back couple days later 🤷

But if we change the 4x range to 3x the same thing will happen wont it? There will be fewer targets even so even more farmage on the ones in range. If the server had 12x range like team, FFA, Express, 1a wouldn't the people who are now getting farmed be hit less?
So in terms of spreading out the hits, increasing the range to 1/12th - 12x would be helpful, while narrowing down the range would be detrimental.

You have not commented on my suggestion. It makes multi-taps rarer, it makes the markets better, it spreads out the hits between more players. Isn't that good? It's not going to solve every problem at once ofc. But doesn't it take us in the right direction? Does it open the door for some kind of cheating? Is it balanced? Costs need adjustments?


fluffing hell, now you're demanding I exercise brain cells!!

Hitting outside HR would cost a fluff ton but sometimes depending on market conditions can pay off.... It's a good way yes to limit farming, agreed, yeah I see it now, it'll also create more market goods consumption and possibly enhance it...yeah ok I'll buy into that.


I guess now it's all up to Slagpit to see if any of all this makes sense to him 🤷
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

Rob

Member
1024

Feb 18th 2021, 4:39:51

I am definitely for opening up the humanitarian range.

I do think it spreads out the hits which is better for everyone, and also doesnt let countries easily use humanitarian range to multi-tap and jump.

On the cost of it, i really dont know - but even without attaching a cost to it, wouldn't it be better anyway?

KoHeartsGPA

Member
EE Patron
25,269

Feb 18th 2021, 4:47:35

Originally posted by Rob:
I am definitely for opening up the humanitarian range.

I do think it spreads out the hits which is better for everyone, and also doesnt let countries easily use humanitarian range to multi-tap and jump.

On the cost of it, i really dont know - but even without attaching a cost to it, wouldn't it be better anyway?


Express used to be a lot of fun before the bots and I don't remember a 4x humanitarian protection....I don't recall people getting farmed an issue, actually yes that was a problem, someone refresh my memory?

Edited By: KoHeartsGPA on Feb 18th 2021, 4:49:58
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

Tmac

Member
286

Feb 18th 2021, 5:10:57

If you opened up hr I would farm the same countries more. I only move on from farming 1m nw countries now because hr forces me to.

So far I'm only for the tips to help people improve, and extra land through bonus acres and/or exploring.

Hessman123

Member
779

Feb 18th 2021, 5:33:13

I remember Ponti advocating for 50 acres or 100 acres per day for bonus acres almost a year ago, because the 20 acres per day really does nothing other than tip everyone off to when each player is logging in for the first time each day.

I guess we will wait and see if anything actually changes, I think it's best to leave Primary alone for the most part but these few minor changes would definitely be positive changes. Increasing the daily land bonus and increasing the explore acres will both help with the amount of land in the server, which will in turn help with the multi-tapping especially later in the rounds.

I second this post below...

Originally posted by Tmac:
If you opened up hr I would farm the same countries more. I only move on from farming 1m nw countries now because hr forces me to.

So far I'm only for the tips to help people improve, and extra land through bonus acres and/or exploring.

Slagpit

Administrator
Game Development
4034

Feb 19th 2021, 5:37:44

What do folks think about changing the acres per day bonus to be based on how much land that you lost from land grabs over the previous 24 hours?

For player tips, if there's a specific suggestion then I can look at it. I think I wrote all of that code originally and I don't think that it's hard to add new tips. Happy to make some of them direct players to wikis (or even here to ask for help). I don't know if they'll ever be good enough to make a player not run a rainbow though. We do have some longer term projects in mind for teaching new players the basics, so don't be discouraged if not a lot happens here.

Gerdler

Member
4129

Feb 19th 2021, 5:55:22

Originally posted by Slagpit:
What do folks think about changing the acres per day bonus to be based on how much land that you lost from land grabs over the previous 24 hours?

Thats quite possibly a decent idea. Take care not to make it too much tho because it may make landtrading too powerful as it will be quite a lot like adding ghost acres.

Can I add that the bonus should be automatic rather than at first login. This would both remove the information this gives about the player being online but perhaps almost as crucially it will add land to inactives(which would then serve the active players who grab them) and people who might miss logging in a day or two here and there.

Slagpit

Administrator
Game Development
4034

Feb 19th 2021, 5:57:39

Another option would be to give bonus acres based on current acreage and turns played/turns left in the round. Smaller countries would get more as the round goes on. Bigger countries wouldn't get anything. One thing I don't like about this idea is it might be kind of weird for techers, but it's probably fine.

Edited By: Slagpit on Feb 19th 2021, 6:01:31
See Original Post

Brigg

Member
399

Feb 19th 2021, 11:42:39

I've suggested it before, but I figured I could suggest it again here since it's on topic.

Why not make "Daily Bonus Acre Increase" a permanent bonus to be bought with bonus points? 8 Bonus Points gets you 5 additional Bonus Acres per day. Amount of bonus acres adjusts depending in the server.

And speaking of bonus points:

Originally posted by Gerdler:

Can I add that the bonus should be automatic rather than at first login.


Can I add that the bonus points awarded every 22 hours for premium players should be automatic, rather than at first login?

Edited By: Brigg on Feb 19th 2021, 11:49:51
See Original Post
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Requiem

Member
EE Patron
7346

Feb 19th 2021, 12:27:00

Yes, automatic bonus points rather than at first login would be awesome. I don't think you need to worry about someone who pays money to play EE won't log in and be active on a semi-regular basis which is why I suspect it requires logging in to obtain.

Even if not, the points still expire, so you still need to log in to use them!

+1

Tmac

Member
286

Feb 19th 2021, 15:20:13

I think every type of bonus should be automatic without logging in. Why does logging in at certain times give you an advantage? It's not a skill that deserves a reward. Every 22 hours everyone gets 8 or 9 bonus points. Every 18 hours everyone gets 6 bonus turns. Every 24 hours everyone gets their bonus acres. No logins required to get any of that.

I'm fine with giving all the bonus acres to the people getting farmed. I also agree that the 20 acre bonus now is mostly used to tell if/when someone logged in.

For the tips, I think there's alot of good stuff already in there. Maybe more specifics though. Telling a rep to focus on ent/res or communism to build indies.

Hessman123

Member
779

Feb 19th 2021, 15:53:11

Originally posted by Slagpit:
What do folks think about changing the acres per day bonus to be based on how much land that you lost from land grabs over the previous 24 hours?

For player tips, if there's a specific suggestion then I can look at it. I think I wrote all of that code originally and I don't think that it's hard to add new tips. Happy to make some of them direct players to wikis (or even here to ask for help). I don't know if they'll ever be good enough to make a player not run a rainbow though. We do have some longer term projects in mind for teaching new players the basics, so don't be discouraged if not a lot happens here.


RE: player tips

I think Monkey See Monkey Do type tips and suggestions would be the best for new players

Show an example country status, an example advisor page of what a proper communist industrialist strategy looks like, with proper tech levels and building distribution, and a proper republic casher strategy or fascist farmer strategy with proper building distribution and proper tech levels.

Showing someone what a properly build country looks like would make it much easier in my opinion

As for the bonus acres and explore acres, I think the KIS theory needs to be applied to whatever solution you come up with and keep it simple and please try not to alter the game play too much,

Cheers,
Thanks

Ratski

Member
744

Mar 5th 2021, 18:56:51

I just hate the slow turn rate in Primary I stopped playing this sever last year, because of the turn rate and I get farmed here. lol.

KoHeartsGPA

Member
EE Patron
25,269

Mar 5th 2021, 19:20:47

Originally posted by Ratski:
I just hate the slow turn rate in Primary I stopped playing this sever last year, because of the turn rate and I get farmed here. lol.


All rainbows get farmed, stop building rainbows!
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
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-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!