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legion Game profile

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Sep 12th 2011, 22:43:52

Nobody puts baby in a corner

NOW3P Game profile

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Sep 13th 2011, 17:58:09

Good article...

I think that "Big oil won't be replaced until something else becomes more profitable" is a pretty fair statement.

legion Game profile

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Sep 13th 2011, 23:40:37

I'll give you a whole dollar if you can figure out which moniker=me in the comments
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Terror Game profile

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Sep 14th 2011, 0:20:28

That dude is what I call an alarmist wind bag. There are certainly problems in the world but his notion of paying for environmental damage to use a fuel is ludicrous. I'm not saying it isn't a wise notion, but it won't happen even if it costs ten times more later because that bill is later.

Humans are more adaptable than he gives us credit for. We are not just going to sit here and die because oil is expensive.

legion Game profile

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Sep 14th 2011, 2:26:59

The article is thought provoking, in some cases spot on but in many cases incorrect. The problem comes from lacking a lot of checks and balances on simple estimations, due to which I think that a lot of things are unsubstantiated and in my view wishful thinking. Thereby a specific view on what is the case is imposed on the reader who doesn't read between the lines.

Specific problems that I have related to statements made are:

1) Statement: "A concentrated power source that can be stored allows social and political power to concentrate in the hands of those who control it. It generates very different social dynamics from an energy source that is universally distributed and constantly renewed. or one thing, the profit potential of the latter is intrinsically less. Once you have sold the geothermal pump or the PV array, the buyer is self-sufficient, unlike the electrical power consumer who has to pay the metered rate in perpetuity. Energy dependency and economic dependency are closely linked."

I agree with the outlined logic that a concentrated power source allows for higher social/political power, and that energy dependency and economic dependency are closely linked. However, the profit potential of a universally distributed (but centrally produced) power source is similar to that of a source where both the capital and fuel are centrally produced. It appears as if there is a large difference in terms of power when you have your own solar panel, but at an aggregate scale there is little difference. The difference is the time distribution for a single user in terms of spending.

Say that the cost of natural gas electricity and solar power are similar, and that a consumer chooses for solar power over natural gas. This implies that the consumer spends 95% of the cost at t=0, while otherwise the company would through fuel consumption get the same sum over a longer period of time. For the individual this would appear as if he/she is only dependent at one point in time. However, the company would still be able to reap the same profits (unless marginal costs/cost patterns are different), but the temporal distribution of those profits changes.

The only difference in profit potential that I can see derives from the change in terms of quality. In the present market a lot of profit potential comes in case of oil due to low cost producers (OPEC) being able to sell their oil at high prices as the costs of marginal demand are very high (80+ dollars per barrel). I.E. OPEC producers obtain a 40-60 dollar per barrel profit margin. This is less the case with solar/wind power as there is little difference in the cost pattern between producers. However, this is not intrinsic as it depends on technologies and resources, and in such a centralised case it is still possible to monopolize things.

The check and balance here comes from looking at things from a societal perspective (in which the firm that produces solar/wind power operates) instead of an individual perspective. The case laid out would be true if also the production of the technology would take place locally, but I don't see any argument towards this in the article (and doubt the feasibility of it).

2) Statement: "For example, thanks in large part to the Internet, a tide of decentralization and disintermediation is erasing the producer/consumer divide in the areas of news and entertainment. That more and more of our time is spent watching "content" produced by amateurs suggests that we are approaching "peak Hollywood," in parallel with peak healthcare, peak pollution, peak advertising, peak fisheries, and peak oil. '

The claim made here is not substantiated, at the surface it may appear as if some decentralization has taken place but as far as I can check centralization still rules the day. We need specialization to keep a complex society as this one running (whether that is a good thing is a different discussion). In terms of hollywood/entertainment The "model" has changed slightly in the selection of people as a few talents are now selected to "stardom" via internet websites, but this is actually an enforcement of the centralized model as these go into the same system as before.

3) Statement "For decades or centuries, we have maintained growth first by meeting needs, then by creating new needs, then by bringing non-monetized cultures and non-monetized domains of our lives into the money domain. Community, for example, can be stripmined just as coal can: turn the functions of story-telling, dispute resolution, child care, elderly care, recreation, entertainment, into paid services. But in either case, material or social, this process is reaching its limit. We are indeed entering a time of Peak Everything."

It is claimed here as if growth is maintained by meeting needs, creating new needs and brining non-monetized cultures and non-monetized domains into the money domain. This is difficult to defend as economic growth itself is maintained by extraction and developing resources together with technology which can facilitate the services. Any services can also be brought into a monetary system which does not depend on growth, this is a different issue altogether whether or not that is a good thing or not. I find the conflagration of these issues problematic.

4) Statement: "The difficulty in finding a substitute for oil, for example, is born of economics. Imagine what we could have accomplished if the millions of scientific careers and hundreds of billions of dollars that have been devoted to petroleum and nuclear power over the last fifty years had gone instead into developing "alternative" energy technologies. Imagine if, at the dawn of the environmental movement in the 1960s, we had launched a global scientific effort exceeding that devoted to the space race to create a pollution-free society. It did not happen, and with good reason: there was no money in it (given the kind of money system we have had). Compared to the technologies of Big Energy, there is little profit to be made in the alternatives. The alternatives are not conducive to economic growth, and will never flourish in a money system that compels and depends on growth."

The cause of finding a substitute for oil is put here entirely on the monetary system which we have in place today. Although true there is much more too it, as this is also very much related to humanity itself (and our discount rates) as well as technological differences. There is no look at a metric of welfare (doubtful if the same level could have been sustained with alternatives).

5) Statement: "Sunlight, wind, conservation, geothermal energy, and more controversial technologies like cold fusion, Bedini/Bearden devices, and so forth share an important characteristic in common. Their energy source is more or less ubiquitous, so that users needn't be dependent on an ongoing supply of scarce fuel. They are, in an important sense, abundant. his feature puts them at odds with our money system, which depends on the creation and maintenance of scarcity. To profit from something, say energy, it must be scarce: high-tech pharmaceuticals, for example, rather than ubiquitous weeds and folk medicine. "

To profit from something you need to have a property rights system in place, and have something that people demand, scarcity or abundance is not a relevant metric in this sense. In case of fossil fuels these are abundantly available in today's society because of their low cost. The technologies to covert sunlight and wind and geothermal etc. are not abundantly available (supply is often overbooked by demand and delays in delivery are frequent) because of their high cost, their relative scarcity is high.

The example of high-tech pharmaceuticals versus ubiquitous weeds/folk medicine is difficult as this also involves an aspect of quality, reliability, and the impossibility of mass production. It is an interesting example but difficult to compare with energy.

Etc.

Edited By: legion on Sep 14th 2011, 2:51:00. Reason: roll tide
See Original Post
Nobody puts baby in a corner

NOW3P Game profile

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Sep 14th 2011, 3:11:29

I think a resource tax is a phenomenal idea, personally.

If you want to use 8 bajillion gallons of crude a year to run your business, you ought to contribute a small portion of your revenue to ensuring that any damage the extraction or use of that fuel causes is covered, instead of making a 3rd party cover the cost.

Now, whether that is a mandatory or just obligatory fee is another debate.


I also don't think it's a measure of adaptability. It's plain and simple lack of options - no other known fuel can currently replace petroleum as the major mass energy source for the planet's population.



Legion - I'll give YOU a dollar if you don't make me re-read that entire thing :-)

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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Sep 14th 2011, 19:25:37

my energy usage has declined rapidly simply from the development of more efficient technology. meh, it's going to drop even more with cellular companies telling me that it costs like $10 for me to download a gigabyte of data. costs more for me to download a movie than to buy it. i'm guessing that the lunatics have gained control of the asylum.
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NOW3P Game profile

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Sep 15th 2011, 1:52:58

I love my grandfathered in unlimited plan :-)

legion Game profile

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Sep 15th 2011, 2:20:04

cingular?
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dustfp Game profile

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Sep 15th 2011, 2:25:49

$10/gig??
data allowances in australia are IMPROVING, we used to get 3G/month plans for $90 and now companies are just starting to release truly unlimited plans for like $30
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NOW3P Game profile

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Sep 15th 2011, 4:04:03

I get unlimited data for $30 a month, but in the US they're going in the opposite direction - Verizon just switched to a tiered plan based on usage, and AT&T is supposed to be following suit soon if they haven't already.

Terror Game profile

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Sep 15th 2011, 10:46:58

I'm going to respond to just to just the number 1 statement on account of having limited time just now.

I think the notion that people congregate in cities only because there is energy there is ludicrous. People congregate to work cooperatively.

Also the notion that citizens need to be saddled with perpetual energy bills to keep the economy working is asinine. Big oil companies can go out of business. The sooner the better. The people that work there may be screwed, but rest assured their children will get trained to do something useful. The rest of us definitely don't do better for having a perpetual drain on our resources.

Common sense works better the convoluted economic mumbo jumbo.

Detmer Game profile

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Sep 15th 2011, 15:20:06

Originally posted by Terror:
I'm going to respond to just to just the number 1 statement on account of having limited time just now.

I think the notion that people congregate in cities only because there is energy there is ludicrous. People congregate to work cooperatively.

Also the notion that citizens need to be saddled with perpetual energy bills to keep the economy working is asinine. Big oil companies can go out of business. The sooner the better. The people that work there may be screwed, but rest assured their children will get trained to do something useful. The rest of us definitely don't do better for having a perpetual drain on our resources.

Common sense works better the convoluted economic mumbo jumbo.


I don't have time to read the article today, but responding to Terror's post, I agree. We have this notion that our complex economy is necessary when really we can survive without any economy. People need food, water, shelter to live... not economy. In our current system we do have a need for lots of meaningless jobs and purchases because we have automated away our jobs and people are not benevolent and willing to just give people money for nothing. We do have a problem where we are able to replace what we consider a reason to give someone food but are unwilling to just give them food. Seeing as how all land is owned by one entity or another - there is really no where for these people to go. Maybe the cream will rise to the top (although empirically we see that starting position is more important than intrinsic ability/work ethic in most cases) but that still leaves vast quantities of people who want to do their best and work hard, that don't even get a chance.

legion Game profile

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Sep 15th 2011, 20:47:41

Terror, I think you should reread what I said..and maybe you would realize that nothing you are saying makes since..at all.

I dont see where it is states that people congregate in cities because energy is there.

I also do not see anything that indicatescitizens need to be saddled with perpetual energy bills to keep the economy working is asinine.

Nor is there any request for big oil companies to thrive or even survive.

I am goign to give you the benefit of the doubt before I start talking down and insulting you, but wtf?
Nobody puts baby in a corner

legion Game profile

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Sep 15th 2011, 20:48:13

Detmer, shutty
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Terror Game profile

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Sep 15th 2011, 21:30:52

Legion, I didn't read it from you. That's from the article. I actually have yet to read what you said at all, but I may yet when I get back from band practice this evening. I agree that what he was saying doesn't make sense. Those were not my views but his.

What I said makes perfect sense to people like Detmer who don't buy into the wholesale bull pucky economists serve up.

Detmer really hit the nail on the head. We need to start considering employment as a resource. Just because you want to work 60 hours a week to make more money doesn't mean you should unless you want the poor sod who can't find a job to mug you.

The best thing we could do for employment issues is mandate a 30 hour work week. All kinds of employers would hire new employees to keep from having to pay too much overtime.

legion Game profile

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Sep 15th 2011, 21:42:34

Fair enough. I assumed since you had already posted in response to the article that you were now responding to my post and was a bit confuzzled, plus I am very irritated as there is a aping hole in the wall about 7 feet across and 8 high
Nobody puts baby in a corner

Terror Game profile

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Sep 15th 2011, 22:56:10

What wall?

legion Game profile

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Sep 15th 2011, 23:44:18

Where the doors used to be
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Terror Game profile

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Sep 20th 2011, 0:49:15

It must have been a great party.