right now in general i would say:

techer>casher>farmer>indy

with oiler being unstable but generally ok, and mbr not being practical at all at some points of the set

indys probably better than i think it is due to tech now being 160%, commie having +35% and 10% commissions that's 3.65472 effective troop/jet/turret per turn max

fascist farmer is 13.17739 bushels per turn max

so jets/turrets need to be around 3.6x food for them to be equal which is possible but not always the case

34:122
40:144
50:180
60:216

the difference between the 2 though is indy gets more income sooner at low tech levels while farmer takes longer to catch up

im not sure if indy needs changes but i think farmer and techer should both be normalised a little to casher

this can be achieved by:

increasing tpt from ~25% of labs to ~33% of labs
effect - raises techers average tech levels - makes tech starts a lot more viable reducing the huge disparity in prices before and after allx techers start teching slightly - ~25% less techers needed on a server for market equilibrium

decreasing max selling price of tech from 10k - 10k currently is $2500/acre with no allies or up to $3250 with equal allies, if tech was changed to ~33% of labs then it would increase to $3333 and $4333 with allies, decreasing tech max sell price would also reduce buyouts multiplying effect - $7500 would maintain equilibrium while providing a more reasonable starting purchase price until allx techers start teching - dropping below $7500 slightly could also be advantageous

increasing food floor slightly from $32 even to $34 would have a positive effect on farmer competitiveness and reduce slightly the food peak effect that causes techers stockpiles to be worth more

alternatively increasing agri tech or base food production could boost farmers without changing market phases as much, arguably agri tech if boosted could have C1 and C2 values changed to slow down income growth from purchasing tech

or cash techs could be reduced slightly combined with techer changes resulting in the top two being brought back to the pack without changing the market cycles as much

I think techer's good enough. It's a hard enough strat to play already. Perhaps reduce one research ally slot and that's it.

I agree with increasing the food floor to $34/$35, it would help farmers a lot.

As for indies, I still think they will need a bit of tech boost.. perhaps 170% would do them just fine..

not sure if i agree on raising food or changing techers but i do agree that indies are still a bit weak but perhaps this should be fixed by raising the % of what they can sell per time instead of raising tech levels

a farmer/casher can compete just fine as its vs a techer at least it was that way in e2025 but afaik the formulas are still the same

I tend to agree on the labs side, I've suggested going back to the old tech formula once or twice; (0.18 instead of 0.13 i think?)

Though I disagree on the food floor -- having played farmer, it's pretty trivial to just stock bushels and dump on PM.... you can do pretty damned well (110M nw) with an all-x farmer, with very little market interaction; while that style of play is valid, and is in fact good for players with little time, I'm not sure I'd want to encourage more active players that way....



That was my intention with increasing how much a commie could sell. We could potentially up it to 40% if ~33% is not enough....

also, the increase in food consumption should have increased farmer viability, except i think too many bushels get produced simply for stockpiling and not for actual consumption

You should roll that tpt change out into FFA!

The only change I would make would be further decreasing military upkeep.

Or, what I think should really happen, is that GS should steal food instead of destroying it. I think that is the worst change Mehul ever made. That would solve all the problems.

Ive seen higher all X farmers then what qz posted and 40% instead of 33% sounds fluffy

is it possible for you to track food (and military perhaps as well) sold on private then output it to some of the bots that track stuff?

not really necessary for anything but would be interisting to see at destocking time how much food is sold on private, im expecting express would have very low amounts

food has been as low as 24 and as high as 40 on private, and was actually 2 or 3 before that which caused major problems with 2b bug

i dont think food has to be raised but something to make casher and farmer a little closer could be interesting since otherwise we are left depending on the market and having a food peak for a long period of time

the issue with that though is high food prices doesnt really increase farmer income for the big stocking countries, it just decreases casher income, which is ok and a balancing factor, except if it is too pronounced techers always come out on top

since the cashers/techers combined buy more food than the farmers can sell (2b cash max) once the techers stocks get large enough compared to food floor they have to jump

since with falling tech prices the risk of one more day of tech income gets too large compared to their already sold and converted to food stockpile dropping in value

increasing food consumption just provides the opportunity for more food to be sold early during growth compared to stocking

which means there is more farmers playing as a percentage of the server

and when you do get to stocking peaks probably wont go as high

it doesnt actually change how much farmers make

all strats have peaks and floors, but some are stronger than others:

techer
ceiling - 10k per point - $2500/acre or $3250/acre with allies
peak - growth - 8k per point in alliance, lower in other servers, maybe 6k in ffa, 5k in team and express, 4k in primary - high $/acre but less turns spent teching makes it more about how much you want
stocking - about 3k in alliance, 3k in team, 4k in ffa, 3-4k in express - around $975/acre
floor - 2 networth per tech point - anywhere between $600/point minimum, with $800 being likely and in ffa and sometimes express all tech selling right at the end due to empty markets - ~$200/acre but at this point almost always reselling will be more beneficial

casher
floor - cash start - goes from ~50 for a new country to ~184 for a rep cash built with no tech (usually less than farm start selling on private)
growth - fully built 165% tech rep - approaches $514/acre - income ramps slower than farmer
peak - stocking - fully built max tech rep - approaching $617/acre

farmer
floor - $220/acre for fascist on private - starts slightly lower than that for the same reason as cash start but is a lot closer because most income come from food
growth - $420 on private at 205% agri which it hits quicker than casher hits 165% - or $490 at 205% selling for $40 on public
stocking - ~$460 selling for 32 on private for a late jump

indy
floor - $131 for commie on private during protection which is less than food but way higher out of protection
growth - team primary and ffa all have the odd set of $120 average prices, alliance has been at $150, express is usually $150 but crazy - at $120 its $430/acre at $150 its $532/acre with the fastest and cheapest tech boost, but less of a boost from it, which also means starting income is highest (except for techer)
stocking - should be $150ish except for alliance which can drop to $120ish - at $150 ~$600/acre - at $120 ~$500/acre

oiler
early - pointless to produce oil below ~$60 a barrel
growth - should rise from $300/acre to $450/acre
stocking - hugely volatile, advantage is no required outlay on tech
floor - market used to auto buy oil at either $20 or $21 - so $83 dollars minimum - but you should always jump/convert before it hits that point since a theo reseller should do that well with prices ~82% of max and with destocking time the market should rise to that

then you have to normalise incomes for buying food

if indys need to buy $50 average food their effective income drops by over 1/3, the same for casher which puts them on par with farmer

it looks like food is ~50 over stocking in alliance, and ~40 over stocking in team and ffa

with maybe ~45 in express but stocking doesnt really matter there

so summary:

indy farmer casher look roughly on par in alliance with indy perhaps a bit behind

and casher a fair bit ahead on the other servers

I dont really agree with some of the things you have posted above, the basic math may very well be correct as im too lazy to count on it but my disagreements are basically on how you expect a country to be played/is played

I agree that oilers need a higher floor then 20-21, it should be 80-100 imo

80-100 is too high

that would put fascist at 240-300 base income minus commisions

but it seems like the oil floor is lower than 20 now anyway, maybe 17?

I dont think it's 2 high, there isnt enough demand for it as it is.

Also I thought your 'floor' was suggestion $83 min, maybe I read it wrong.

83 was for when the market auto bought oil for very low prices, it was probably actually 17 as the lowest you could transfer oil now i think about it so more like 72

so:

autooilsellprice * 3 + fascistcashincome = ~$83

not ~$83/barrel, which is over $240/acre and equivelant to a minimum food sell price of about $40 early set with no tech which is obviously much too high for a minimum source of income early set

youd just have everyone building rigs early and selling the oil on an effective public-private market

so 73.333333333 would = 220ish (same as farmer) though there is no tech for oiler, which is why I feel the base should be higher.

its

5.3*1.15*32=195.04 food private
69.163*3=207.489*.94=195.04 public oil price

so if the market auto bought oil below 70 or if oil could be sold for 70 on private income floor would be the same

but and its a big but, as soon as you did either one of those oil would become just as good as food for stocking depending on the price

and oil would have to go up linearlly with food compared to the floor, which means a 0 tech strat and a 1 tech x2.3 tech strat would have similar income

i have enjoyed reading this thoughtful thread

in response
i propose a variable food floor

it could vary by gov type
it could also vary by time in the set

err the "food floor" is kindof set by the most expensive that food can be resold onto the PM... ie 32 is the floor because below that demo's *make* money reselling them....

theo already has a lower selling price off the bat, but they can sell for 32 on the market and a demo will resell it... or 31 if they want to be guaranteed

we should have a set, maybe an express set, where all floors and ceilings are random and change every 4 hrs lol

what you think about oil though qz?

just like theo has a lower private market sell food price
and just like tech can lower that price further

you could balance some of the strats
and particularly the end set strategies
by adjusting the private market food price
say an hour before set end

alternatively u could give other govs like say dictatorships)))) a private food price of 36

lol then A LOT more people would jump as dict, and you'd complain that another gov needs a bonus.

the admins know that i have posted many times arguing for the equalization of war govs to the netter govs

How about you play smart and stockpile as a "netter gov" and then switch to a "war gov" when the war starts?

I think if anything you need to look at each server individually when adjusting govts.

Id say commie is good in express (but you'll get suicided), good in tourney (a commie won last round) and good in primary (commies can get 60+ million nw).

Commie is weak in alliance and team due to less land and more limitations on who you can grab, but I think the improvements in tech and selling make it very viable.

Also the growth part its no way that tech is 8k per point in alliance by then maybe it was this particular set but ive played a techer pretty much every set the past 6 years and never seen it be be that high

fluff

it's usually 8k to start, but quickly drops to ~5-6k i think

i was playing a casher and buying 8k tech for about a week

there is a differance between the timing of a techer and casher growth phase though

cashers growth is delayed by csites and up to 160 stored turns

techers growth is delayed because teching at 3 tpt would be a waste of a turn, so you need to balance, how early you tech versus how much you tech

techers therefore look on super high tech prices as an opportunity to waste less turns teching and grow faster, which further reduces tech being produced keeping tech high for longer

WRT oil.... i don't think we should give it a higher floor than it has imho; personally i think even the food floor is a little *too* artificially high

the only problem with a low food floor is it makes destocking at food peak much more profitable

when food was 40 if you destocked at 100 its equivelant to destocking at 78 now and 60 when food was only 24

so for farmer to be competitive with casher food has to be high, but if you combine that with low food floor then techer should always beat both

also oil floor should always be lower than food floor on a $/acre term after tech otherwise a no tech strat would have an income advantage over a 1 tech one

I dont see how the fluff you can count how much someone earns in general when you base the facts over a single set

just because oil reached 3k 4 years ago doesnt mean that it will do it next set

Also how many techers finished 1 this set in alliance? 1?

Unfortunately ive come to realise that silly posts like this and starstalkers makes the mods do silly changes to the game changing the tpt formula probably wont change techers income just like it didnt change it last time the tpt formula was changed.

anyway fluff

the point isnt to change the techers income

the point is to change the tech price, making non techer comparatively better

ideally tech prices should drop by 23% meaning techers will earn the same as they do now

as to predicting prices, of course thats tough but theres some things that are obvious

like if tech flattens out at about 800 end of set because of networth reasons then having techers tech until it hits 1800 instead of 2400 changes things a lot, almost dropping tech to the point where it is stockable

i dont think torment was techer, so its zero, but thats hardly a reasonable sample size

Can anyone give me a reason why there isnt an oil tech? We have techs for everything else

perhaps to make it so everyone can produce their own oil, although the fascist change changed that

perhaps so all strats have different levels of tech dependency and income profiles

the thing is that non techers are comparatibely better if played right as for this change last time the TPT formula was changed it didnt really do much with the decline of players and well top players the most i guess theres less and less techers and thus rising prices

I know why tech was so high this set theres only 1 reason of it and its pretty simple very posibly the same reason it will be lower next set and i dont think it will be because the tpt change it will be due to politics.

Also tech is stockable even this set i stocked a ton of cheap military while dropping my bushels at the higher price and then to sell the military tech at a higher price close to the end of the set

its all about playing the market for most strats

more stockable if you prefer

tech prices have risen a lot, i remember strats for cash start that said only buy tech if its below 5k/point while you were in protection

and that was the old protection with less turn storing

the past 2 years theres been fewer and fewer techers in the top 10 compared to 3-4 years ago when those strats were written then everyone in the top 10 was a techer

the problem isnt techers the problem is people playing their strats wrong ive seen all X rep farmers hit 139m net if anything its easier to run a farmer up to a high nw then its to run a techer

fluff

apologies, thought oil bonus was 50% when it seems to be 75%

we upped it to 75% yea

During stocking phase, a Fascist Farmer, with the right amount of tech and land, will gain cash flow while stocking bushels.

That's where some of the problem is.

Every other strat has to buy bushels, but Fascist Farmers does not lose anything while stocking, they just cash their turns.

Fascist, as a whole, should have some PCI / Population Penalty. Probably population since no one wants to live under a Fascist.

That would lower the income and, yes, lower food consumption, but by forcing the Fascist into negative income during stocking phase, even if they cash their turns, it would effective force the Food Peak to be lower.

Which leads to a second change, by raising the food floor. This would lower the huge advantage of jumping early, and actually reward those people that goes and grab to 70k acres, and spend time to destock in a couple days at the end of the set.

Don't believe me? Run a Fascist Farmer yourself, grab to 35k acres, drop your military and only keep defense, you can cash for $2M a turn.

I had so much cash flow I had to actually BUY bushels.

hmmm and potentially make them have to sell oil during the peak or something


interesting thought


my thought was to remove the 2B bug and cause the general food peak to be lower in that regard....

LaF claims to have a lot of skill but i really dont get much of it judging by your posts on here

1 The WaNgEr with the Golden Gun (#220) 56,386 $187,189,927 HG
2 Ball Four (#3) 54,304 $170,611,844 DG
3 WangPark Bigger Longer and Uncut (#373) 63,466 $170,098,977 HG
4 Marshall Does Dallas (#80) 49,162 $168,435,368 HG
6 Iron H4xOr (#360) 49,433 $154,083,547 HG
10 Wangzilla (#455) 25,272 $141,189,490 HG
11 Back to main page (#144) 71,711 $138,065,740 DG
12 all explore (#469) 50,124 $136,875,342 HG
13 Lands of hope (#312) 37,634 $135,693,643 DG
15 Charles (#178) 31,430 $132,761,975 HG

How are the people who keep grabbing not rewarded again?
And a techer cant grab to 70k acers if they did that theyd have 0 stock unless you plan on implementing tech production while grabbing like for farmers/cashers etc etc it seems that most ideas posted on here isnt to benefit the game its to benefit your own playing style or maybe thats just my opinion of it

fluffF

Also fasc already has pci and pop penalties, kinda curious to see what kind of defense you ran on 35k acers as well to reach 2m cashing per turn

according to my numbers you'd need 125% bus res tech and 0 costs on 35k acers as a fasc to cash 2m per turn but they could be off

hm that seems low ivan...

wouldnt suprise me at all if they are very off even, might have missed something when calcing on it

I went 150 on bus res and sold them off before that market collapsed and was at 83 military as soon as food broke 40 and wasn't coming down until destock time

I wouldn't say how much defense I had
But I had 600k spies and felt safe enough with the defense.