Verified:

llaar Game profile

Member
11,278

Oct 14th 2010, 14:44:07

I grouped this into tiers of rankings. a distinct #1 or #7 is not possible, at all, considering the history of the clans in this game. Trying to rank them as such is completely pointless.


#1

LAF, NA, SOL, SOF

All 4 of these clans have shown solid war performance and solid netting ability (for SOL and SOF, for the short periods of time that that actually net, they do know how to make countries). They have all dominated the politics of all major wars for the past few years.

One set of poor performance means nothing in the grand scheme of things, be it NA's lackluster netting for a set, or LaF's horrid warring for 1 reset. Each of these clans has beaten and been beaten by each other in different sets. Any of these 4 clans in any of their decent set performances would have completely annihilated any other clan that exists right now in a 1v1. Each one has maintained top10 in membership for the past 4 years of EC 2025+ EE time. Each one has set multiple records in the game, be it netting records or warring records.

Each of them has been led by solid, unwavering leadership, that has held their clan through thick and thin for years. For all the above reasons, there is no way to rank 1 of them higher than the other in my opinion.

#2

Evo, Imag, LCN, Paradigm

This tier of alliances are clans that have been around for years as well, and their leadership is some of the strongest in the game. The loyalty of the members in these clans is definitely to be envied by others. They are the types of clans that can swing the balance of a war easily upon them joining. (regardless of PDM's random AB FS's I know they have it them to do well in war) They are clans that will not fold easily when war is brought to them, set after set after set. They are clans that have really strong netters in them that although their ANW might not always be top, they do have the resources to get there. Of course except for imagnum. They are a tier 2 alliance in my opion though, due to their loyalty to their cause, which is usually to die as much as they can every set and have fun doing so. They miss the top tier due to their constant lower size compared to the tier 1, compared across the last few years, which affects their political pull in the game. LCN is coming into a more dominant phase right now, and Evo has been dominant at times as well, though I'm looking at a longer time frame in general.

#3

Sanct/Collab, Rage, Omega, Monsters

Rage: If it were the Rage of a few years ago, they would be tier 1. They just don't have the size and forceful political leadership they once had.

Collab/Sanct: Collab/Sanct for the past few sets has shown much promise in moving way up as a strong clan. They just don't have a long history of being a powerful clan, but they are starting to build that reputation and definitely have that potential. If this ranking was based off of just Earth Empires, they would be a tier 1.

Omega: Omega is great at throwing up ANW finishes, but if they warred for an entire year, I fear how many of them would be left. They just have not faced as many enemies in my opinion as the higher tier alliances. They don't have any other records than ANW that I know of. The higher tier netting clans would have beaten omega in many sets if they dropped their membership to the same number of members in omega, therefore there are more, better netters as a whole in the larger clans.

Monsters: Monsters are a great group that keep to themselves. They don't care what we think, they leave us all alone, we leave them all alone. They aren't into the politics at all, but they do know how to put up good finishes. I don't see them changing or going anywhere, so I rank them at this level.


the rest:

Fist, Neofed, RD, ICN, Elysium


These clans all have promise, but are small, and a couple seem to be dying off. ICN is at the top of these clans, close behind a tier 3. It is RD's first set, and they have never played EC, so they can't really be ranked.



-----

feel free to agree to disagree if you don't like these rankings.

Detmer Game profile

Member
4244

Oct 14th 2010, 14:49:57

Solid for what you did. Based on how you prioritized things and the scale you looked at I wouldn't argue with these tiers.

TAN Game profile

Member
3213

Oct 14th 2010, 14:55:53

Yay PDM made it on another list!

I agree that Collab should be tier 3 when taken in a historical context, but if we are doing recent, they should at least be tier 2. They are decent at netting and performed very well in the last war.

At the risk of angering certain political entities, I would drop iMag to tier 3. (I have my reasons but I shall be silent on them)

kekekekeke

Also if it were in the short-term, LCN should probably be tier 1 with SoF dropping to tier 2.

SOL, and i am being serious here, is ranked too high. I <3 SOL but they are constantly overrated.

*probes llaar*
FREEEEEDOM!!!

Shinigami Game profile

Member
685

Oct 14th 2010, 15:37:54

I'm not sure of the logic that being able to avoid warring for years on end requires less skills and political savvy then getting into them but ok.

aponic Game profile

Member
1879

Oct 14th 2010, 16:08:50

Shin: If you look at LAF, they are large enough that they simply become a target. If Omega had the size of LAF in the past, they would have also been challenged by war alliances. Political savy they may have, but they also have the advantage of somewhat underachieving, if that were the appropriate word.
SOF
Cerevisi

Slagpit Game profile

Administrator
Game Development
4594

Oct 14th 2010, 16:17:57

"The higher tier netting clans would have beaten omega in many sets if they dropped their membership to the same number of members in omega, therefore there are more, better netters as a whole in the larger clans. "

Do people actually think this?

Servant Game profile

Member
EE Patron
1249

Oct 14th 2010, 16:38:59

No way at all is Omega a Tier 3 alliance.

Move Omega and Sanct/COllab to tier 2

Drop Imag/PDM to tier 3....
though PDM is making a case to move up...and I expect them to be there at Tier 2 soon.


I'm looking at this from the scale of the recoding of the game.
and Omeag is solida top to bottom, should not be used as a reason to knock it. If a larger alliances wants to knock of 20 lower members to compete with omeag in netting let it, but then try to fight Omeag at equal size in a war too:)

Z is #1

martian Game profile

Game Moderator
Mod Boss
7826

Oct 14th 2010, 16:55:04

I declare martian law on this thread
you are all special in the eyes of fluff
(|(|
( ._.) -----)-->
(_(' )(' )

RUN IT IS A KILLER BUNNY!!!

Requiem Game profile

Member
EE Patron
9092

Oct 14th 2010, 17:08:12

Requiem has no representation therefore these rankings are invalid.

martian Game profile

Game Moderator
Mod Boss
7826

Oct 14th 2010, 17:16:46

batman on an elephant, this thread is invalid
you are all special in the eyes of fluff
(|(|
( ._.) -----)-->
(_(' )(' )

RUN IT IS A KILLER BUNNY!!!

Dragonlance Game profile

Member
1611

Oct 14th 2010, 23:39:13

i'm not sure anyone has forceful political leadership anymore:p

Thunder Game profile

Member
2312

Oct 15th 2010, 3:28:24

batman on a zebra would make it relevant though :P
Thunder
ICQ 56183127
MSN


2010 Armchair GMs League Champion
DEFEATER OF MRFORD!
FoCuS'D

NA FA/Senate
Lords


Ninja since born....Awesome Forever!

iZarcon Game profile

Administrator
Game Development
2150

Oct 15th 2010, 7:40:23

it is a bit funny to see iMag ranked so high. to be honest, without trying to show any bias, i think that iMag showed quite a lot of political pull in the last round. it's not easy to get an alliance hell bent on warring you to cease fire while you lurk in the darkness gathering other clans to FS them.

meh, i do think PDM should be ranked in at least the 2nd tier tho... if SoL can be ranked #1 after failing so many sets in a row then winning one war and SoF is still yet to prove themselves with their newfound(veteran) members that have pretty much doubled their tagged membership.

and putting Omega where they are for the reasons stated is ludicrous... i have fought against Omega in a few wars both past and present and they have always shown that they can hold their own even against clans bigger than them.. they are really a tight knit group.
-iZarcon
EE Developer


http://www.letskillstuff.org

Detoxxx Game profile

Member
158

Oct 15th 2010, 9:07:09

iMag and Rage were always a puzzle to me. I saw they had a spine (even when they took bad decisions) and kept a fairly good membership rate. That is my opinion. I also like ICN alot because they just went ahead, no restrictions, no looking back and forth and respected their pacts. This is my opinion from what I HAVE SEEN. Maybe my opinion is flawed, but this what i seen :)

Detox[HoW]

NA Senate

Silent Sentinel Game profile

Member
325

Oct 15th 2010, 13:48:31

Rage used to keep a good membership rate due to having a few hundred ex-members listed in vacation, of which people would cycle in and out every set. With the closure of ES and subsequent move to BC we lost alot of connections with past players and have suffered accordingly.

There is alot of work being done internally to try and get our structures right and ready for expansion again. We've doubled our numbers since last set, and hopefully by the end of this set will be back to 40+ members.

Obviously the big test will be how we perform in our next war, and as much as we deserve a third tier ranking, I don't see us being far off back to second tier.

Otherwise, I think the rankings presented seem about right, with only a few minor objections.

Havoc Game profile

Member
4039

Oct 15th 2010, 14:03:13

I think Omega should drop a 10k hit FS on NA for this..:P
Havoc
Unholy Monks | The Omega

Makinso Game profile

Member
2908

Oct 15th 2010, 15:25:33

Would love to see them pull off a 10Ker :-P that would make them Tier1 for me

llaar Game profile

Member
11,278

Oct 15th 2010, 17:48:58

This is starting from when omega joined the EC server

2007-06 - omega 5th ANW 4 top 100 22 members, NA - 5 top 100, laf - 31 top 100
2007-08 - omega 9th ANW 6 top 100 30 members, NA - 6 top 100, laf - 36 top 100
2007-10 - omega 3rd ANW 12 top 100 31 members, NA - 11 top 100, laf warred
2007-12 - omega warred 15 members, NA - 10 top 100, laf 20 top 100
2008-02 - omega 6th ANW 1 top 100 34 members, NA - warred, laf - 40 top 100
2008-04 - omega 1st ANW 11 top 100 26 members, NA - warred, laf - 40 top 100
2008-06 - omega warred 41 members, NA - 55 top 100, laf - 30 top 100 (record # of top 100's in EC by NA, 55) (record TNW in EC by NA $8,275,441,000 TNW)
2008-08 - omega 3rd ANW 45 members 12 top 100, NA - 28 top 100, laf - 29 top 100
2008-11 - omega 2nd ANW 48 members 11 top 100, NA - 12 top 100, laf warred
2009-01 - omega 2nd ANW 44 members 15 top 100, NA warred, laf warred
2009-03 - omega 3rd ANW 37 members 12 top 100, NA warred, laf - 19 top 100
2009-05 - omega 3rd ANW 34 members 11 top 100, NA warred, laf - 34 top 100
2009-08 - omega warred 38 members, NA warred, LAF warred
2009-10 - omega warred 26 members, NA - 31 top 100, LAF 30 top 100 (record single country NW by NA $872,000,818)
2009-12 - omega 2nd ANW 26 members 19 top 100, NA warred, LAF - 47 top 100
2010-01 - omega 2nd ANW 30 members 19 top 100, NA - 16 top 100, LAF 1 top 100, war?
2010-04 - omega 2nd ANW 30 members 18 top 100, NA - 3 top 100 war?, LAF - 38 top 100
2010-06 - omega 1st ANW 33 members 22 top 100, NA warred, LAF 26 top 100
2010-08 - omega 10thANW 36 members 0 100 war?, NA - 9 top 100, LAF - 39 top 100
2010-10 - omega 2nd ANW 31 members 24 top 100, NA - 12 top 100, laf warred

NA top 100 = 195 in 11 netting sets = avg 17.2
omega top 100 = 178 in 15 netting sets = avg 11.8
LAF top 100 = 459 in 14 netting sets = avg 32.7


so thats a comparison mostly of top 100's, lets look at ANW now amongst the top 4 performing ANW competitors, Evo/LCN/LAF/Omega based on finishing top 3 ANW:

2007-06 - omega --- ANW |
2007-08 - omega --- ANW | Evo #3
2007-10 - omega 3rd ANW | LCN #2
2007-12 - omega warred || Evo #1
2008-02 - omega --- ANW | LAF #1, Evo #2
2008-04 - omega 1st ANW | LAF #2, Evo #3
2008-06 - omega warred || LAF #1
2008-08 - omega 3rd ANW | Evo #1, LCN #2
2008-11 - omega 2nd ANW | Evo #1
2009-01 - omega 2nd ANW | Evo #1
2009-03 - omega 3rd ANW | Evo #1, LAF #2
2009-05 - omega 3rd ANW | LAF #2, Evo #1
2009-08 - omega warred || Evo #1, LCN #2
2009-10 - omega warred || LAF #2
2009-12 - omega 2nd ANW | LAF #1
2010-01 - omega 2nd ANW | evo #1
2010-04 - omega 2nd ANW | LAF #1
2010-06 - omega 1st ANW | LAF #2
2010-08 - omega 10th ANW| EVO #1, LAF #2
2010-10 - omega 2nd ANW | EVO #1

evo - 13 sets of top 3 ANW, 10 wins
omega - 11 sets of top 3 ANW, 2 wins
LAF - 10 sets of top 3 ANW, 4 wins
LCN - 3 sets of top 3 ANW

Now lets compare top 3 TNW finishes of LAF/EVo/LCN/omega/NA/PDM

2007-06 - LAF NA
2007-08 - LAF NA
2007-10 - NA PDM
2007-12 - LAF NA
2008-02 - LAF EVO
2008-04 - LAF NA
2008-06 - LAF NA
2008-08 - NA PDM
2008-11 - NA PDM
2009-01 - PDM OMEGA
2009-03 - Evo
2009-05 - LAF EVO PDM
2009-08 - EVO LCN LAF
2009-10 - NA LAF
2009-12 - LAF OMEGA PDM
2010-01 - NA OMEGA EVO
2010-04 - LAF omega NA
2010-06 - LAF omega
2010-08 - LAF NA
2010-10- EVo LCN OMEGA


LAF - 13 sets of top 3 TNW
NA - 12 sets of top 3 TNW
omega - 6 sets of top 3 TNW
PDM - 5 sets of top 3 TNW
EVO - 5 sets of top 3 TNW
LCN - 2 sets of top 3 TNW


So basically, based on all this, I definitely overestimated in my memory LCN, LCN should be a tier 3. I thought they performed better in ANW/TNW than it appears they really did.

Omega I believe will move up to tier 2 if they keep up the performance they've shown the past year. Their first year was rather weak with 34 top 100 finishes in a whole year. The past year they have 83 top 100's, 2 1/2 times as many. 5 of their 6 high TNW performances were in the last 6 sets.

qzjul Game profile

Administrator
Game Development
10,263

Oct 15th 2010, 18:21:12

TNW is hard when you have few members =(

still, 5 sets of Top 3 TNW is not bad for evo... w00t for 10 ANW wins
Finally did the signature thing.

Pang Game profile

Administrator
Game Development
5731

Oct 15th 2010, 18:24:52

woo

Those stats show that LaF were the New England Patriots of netting in the last few years!

Lots of championships, lots of good 'seasons', and a few blown knees that ruined our season :p

also, why didn't you include total wins in the TNW section? :p
-=Pang=-
Earth Empires Staff
pangaea [at] earthempires [dot] com

Boxcar - Earth Empires Clan & Alliance Hosting
http://www.boxcarhosting.com

Havoc Game profile

Member
4039

Oct 15th 2010, 18:37:40

The 2nd last set we were 10th ANW we warred SoL..

But yeah as a clan we don't care all that much for stats and pride ourselves on laziness, as you can see by the greatly decreased amount of bottomfeeding we do compared to evo/laf.

Maki - I got to be a part of one in the last Omega/Steel war 2-3 years back, good times:)
Havoc
Unholy Monks | The Omega

aponic Game profile

Member
1879

Oct 15th 2010, 18:41:13

LCN and TIE merged... so you should merge their stats llaar
SOF
Cerevisi

Slagpit Game profile

Administrator
Game Development
4594

Oct 15th 2010, 18:56:05

NA might have had more netgaining talent than the omega in 2007 but they certainly do not in 2010.

NukEvil Game profile

Member
4327

Oct 15th 2010, 18:56:23

Can't merge what was separate until very recently.


And, I was going to post something douchey and propagandic in nature about Evo's godly, awesome ANW stats, but decided not to.





Or did I?
I am a troll. Everything I say must be assumed to be said solely to provoke an exaggerated reaction to the current topic. I fully intend to bring absolutely no substance to any discussion, ongoing or otherwise. Conversing with me is pointless.

Alicia Game profile

Member
289

Oct 15th 2010, 20:06:45

Haha, Havoc, that was actually more like over 2+3 years ago ;) Do you feel old yet? We only need to gain like an other 50 members or so and maybe we can do it again! ;)

It is interesting to look at the stats like that, llaar. Havoc is correct, though, you forgot to include that we warred the reset before last (not that it makes a huge difference overall). Omega was going through a pretty rough time for awhile for several reasons of which I will not go into detail. Obviously, we aren't the best (except in our HEARTS! hehe), but I think we have been pretty solid and consistent again for the past 2.5 years. By that, I mean we have netted pretty well, put up good numbers when we have warred, and have had a stable membership base.

Edited By: Alicia on Oct 15th 2010, 20:19:16
See Original Post

Havoc Game profile

Member
4039

Oct 15th 2010, 20:12:02

Ugh yeah, I need to retire. :p
Havoc
Unholy Monks | The Omega

Alicia Game profile

Member
289

Oct 15th 2010, 20:19:34

NEVARRRRRR!!!!! :)

BobbyATA Game profile

Member
2367

Oct 15th 2010, 20:22:49

I checked one stat, EVO top3 TNW and it was incorrect. Llaar had 5, but I count 6. Can someone with basic counting skills please conduct a study like this and then it would be interesting=)! (j/k llaar, but seriously that stat is off and the only one I checked...)

Fooglmog Game profile

Member
1149

Oct 15th 2010, 20:31:55

I think these stats are well put together. I disagree with some of the specifics, but overall I think they're great.

I was also hoping that Servant and Tan would give their reasons for thinking iMagNum should be tier 3. I certainly think that there's an argument to be made to that effect... but I want to know why they specifically made that suggestion.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

Slagpit Game profile

Administrator
Game Development
4594

Oct 15th 2010, 20:47:03

imag should be in "the rest" because we shouldn't order them among the natural numbers

TAN Game profile

Member
3213

Oct 15th 2010, 20:47:42

Well Foogl, PDM are friends with iMag and I don't want to sour our relations by saying why I think they should be dropped, so that's why I haven't said anything about it.
FREEEEEDOM!!!

Fooglmog Game profile

Member
1149

Oct 15th 2010, 20:54:15

Originally posted by Slagpit:
imag should be in "the rest" because we shouldn't order them among the natural numbers

Kudos

Originally posted by TAN:
Well Foogl, PDM are friends with iMag and I don't want to sour our relations by saying why I think they should be dropped, so that's why I haven't said anything about it.

I highly doubt it would do that. Maybe if you said it during the part of the month when Soviet's PMSing... but we know that's not right now because iMagNum isn't in a war yet.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

Thomas Game profile

Member
1763

Oct 15th 2010, 20:54:31

Don't be afraid to hurt feelings TAN. Out with it!

W A R!

SolidSnake Game profile

Member
867

Oct 15th 2010, 21:07:25

you've missed out alot of war sets on that list llaar heh

TAN Game profile

Member
3213

Oct 15th 2010, 21:31:52

Well -- apologies in advance to iMag -- but after warring with them, I just don't think they are very good at the only thing they do.

Their members are undisciplined and hit targets when they feel like it, although many of their members do as they're told at warchats.

Paradigm is not a war clan and has never been known to be one. There was only a short period in our history when anyone would have considered us "good" at warring.

And after that war last set, I can honestly say that PDM, as a crappy clan at everything (but we're improving rapidly under new leadership), did a better job with the warring part.

iMag has a pretty l33t bot that helps a lot. They are a fun bunch of guys to chat to and I like iMag a lot (much luv to Zarc and Tavi -- Soviet is still nub)...but I really don't think they should be as high as they are given that the only thing they ever do they aren't even good at doing.

Their target selection was okay but not what I expected. Their ability to collate online/offline times is amazing as is their previously mentioned newsbot. The lack of discipline among SOME members, the meh target selection and their deathly fear of jets (they almost consistently refused to do BR) didn't give me a very good impression of their warring abilities.

Naturally, I am speaking for myself here. I'm sure there are other PDM members who strongly disagree with me.

I can't give a recent impression on SoF's warring abilities since they were all restarts by the time we joined, but they seemed disciplined and over-eager to kill even when they couldn't. Bunch of warmongers, them. :P

Once again, apologies if any offense is taken among the iMag guys. It is possible that I misinterpreted events.
FREEEEEDOM!!!

warlorde Game profile

Member
255

Oct 15th 2010, 21:42:38

TAN is ranked too high!

Murf Game profile

Member
1212

Oct 15th 2010, 22:03:12

nothing wrong with honesty TAN

Fooglmog Game profile

Member
1149

Oct 15th 2010, 23:00:55

I don't think any offence will be taken to what you said TAN. I happen to agree with most of the specific problems you've mentioned and I think that they're all issues which have been brought up among our leadership.

There's historical reasons for everything you mention. Particularly that the quality of training new members receive has varied greatly over the years... but you've pretty accurately defined iMagNum's biggest issues.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

TAN Game profile

Member
3213

Oct 15th 2010, 23:22:00

I understand the arguments for GS -- you can use troops both offensively and defensively.

But for Christ's sake, is it so hard to have both if you war prep properly? I myself intentionally keep a low amount of troops because I *WANT* to be GSed -- it's easier to wall, takes more turns and doesn't destroy buildings. Also, troops are cheaper so it costs less to wall.

But BRs kill faster and destroy buildings. We prefer to BR in wars (when we're not ABing). We were pretty much the breakers the entire time. Is it so hard (SoF included) to buy some damn jets?

That was so...goddamned...frustrating. We had one guy with 10m jets or so and since no one in SoF/iMag (with a few exceptions) was privy to BR, he basically couldn't do anything with them.
FREEEEEDOM!!!

Thomas Game profile

Member
1763

Oct 16th 2010, 0:13:02

"(when we're not ABing)" -- that made me lol :)

Tertius Game profile

Member
EE Patron
1480

Oct 16th 2010, 0:28:57

@llaar, Just curious, but why not look at more alliances for how many top 100s? I would assume that most of those that score well in ANW should have quite a few top 100s. Specifically, evo looked like it had the most top ANW, so how do they fare for the top 100? Also, you looked at LCN for ANW but not top 100. I assume it takes more time to look over all of the top 100, but it might be enlightening to see how that compares with ANW.

To be fair, I'm waaay too lazy to check myself, so I understand if you don't either, but just think it might be interesting.

Shinigami Game profile

Member
685

Oct 16th 2010, 0:54:26

*Nods at TAN*

I'd take the chance to do a BR kill over a GS kill any day. It depends on contry strat and stock of course but most of the time you know that if you do have the bad luck to hit someone that makes it online and walls, at the very least you have hurt them enough to make recovery a chore.

Soviet Game profile

Member
991

Oct 16th 2010, 2:03:18

TAN- Thanks for the input.
Imaginary Numbers
http://www.letskillstuff.org

Thomas Game profile

Member
1763

Oct 16th 2010, 2:40:09

Well it also depends on the breaks. Most countries have more Turrets than Troops. And it also depends on the stocks of the countries you're working with, as well as the Market.

Servant Game profile

Member
EE Patron
1249

Oct 16th 2010, 2:44:44

Look at Monsters for the resets in the earth council.
While no wins, Monsters have been very consistent.
Z is #1

Servant Game profile

Member
EE Patron
1249

Oct 16th 2010, 2:47:28

meant earth empires...
Z is #1

AxAlar Game profile

Member
565

Oct 16th 2010, 2:58:48

TAN - You also could have seen a completely different situation in the fact that we focused 90% of our effort at killing off Imag. If that were PDM instead, could have shifted the activity/togetherness of Imag.

And on the BR thing, you guys were only able to take advantage of it because you had been stocking so long while our stocks were depleted, so many countries had to sell off military, making it easier to be BRed.

Once you have a hardcore straight-on "war set" I think you're love of jets will be lowered ;p
-AxA
Mercenary for Hire
AIM: I The Brandon
ICQ: 167324517
MSN:

Warster Game profile

Game Moderator
Primary, Express, Tourney, & FFA
4172

Oct 16th 2010, 4:03:13

LoL servant i just looked,

3rd is our spot , it belongs to us hahaha
FFA- TKO Leader
Alliance- Monsters

MSN
ICQ 28629332

llaar Game profile

Member
11,278

Oct 16th 2010, 5:07:56

yes over halfway through these stats i did think it would be nice to have evo and lcn as well... but its really hard to tabulate everything together... i mean not hard, but just time consuming. most people commented on omega, so i was mostly trying to address that firstly in my analysis. and lately they've done great. which is great. :) i hope to see all alliances grow and new alliances form in the future, as i hope this game and facebook etc take off.

Sifos Game profile

Member
1419

Oct 16th 2010, 8:09:21

Originally posted by TAN:

But for Christ's sake, is it so hard to have both if you war prep properly?


Looking back, going troop heavy was probably not our best bet seing how well Collab stone walled. However, it was looked viable just before the FS considering alot of easy breaks on high jet/stock targets. Considering that the war resources was so low during the FS that I had to do the breaking for our GS targets, our contribution to breaking during the early war may have been even less if we went for jets instead.

As for late war, as has been mentioned, imag took harder hits than PDM.

As for discipline... Believe me, whatever frustration you had with bad discipline, I have it tenfold.
Imaginary Numbers
If you're important enough to contact me, you will know how to contact me.
Self appointed emperor of the Order of Bunnies.
The only way to be certain your allies will not betray you is to kill them all!