LM: I really would like to know where you get your facts from? They are far fetched. Just sayin.

I think he got them from a magic 8 ball :)

Dissident, you remind me of the people that comment on YouTube videos/news articles. The bottom of the barrel of internet users. Are you a regular commenter?

I prefer Jack mormons, they're the only mormons that will hang out with me :(

What's youtube? No, I don't comment on youtube klown. I also believe that once someone stoops to ad hominem attacks, they are conceding the debate. So, thank you. Klown, you're such a bully.

[quote poster=Dissidenticn; 20769; 382434

Don't worry people, I do the same thing to Christians. I mean, Obama may be Christian but I don't believe his policies will reflect it... and I doubt he will cow tow to clergy.
. [/quote]


I think Obama's policies reflect Christinaity very well.

When we look at the Hrebew Scriptures (Old Testament) we find that when the people were in convenant with God, they had provisions for, the widows, the orphan, and Foriegner.

Obama, supports medicare/medicaide, for those who need it.
Obama, has pushed through aspects of the dream acts for the foriegner.

he has enacted quasi- universal health care, so women no longer have a "prexiesting condition" just for being born female.

He has evolved in his beliefs on GLTBQ marriage. WHich I find to be a justice issue.
Micah 6:8 What does the Lord require of you but too Love Justice, Do mercy, Walk humbly your God.

I find his policies much more in line with my understanding of Christianity, than the trickle up Reagonomics of the Republcan party that ahs robbed our average americans of wealth and centralized them among the elite.


For me, Obama has been the MOST christian President we have had in our life time. Maybe not in his piety, but in his actions and how he governs.

LM is right in a sense. Muslims do believe that Jesus (aka Prophet Isa) will be the savior of the world, but not in the Christian son of God sense, but rather that he will return to defeat the Dajjal (anti-Christ) close to the day of judgement.

LDS.org? The Jesus the mormons claim has no true divinity, because the god they proclaim has none.

"There are three separate persons in the Godhead: God, the Eternal Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost. We believe in each of them. From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, without flesh and bone. These three persons are one in perfect unity and harmony of purpose and doctrine."

This is all just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to disturbing "theology" of the lds.

Did you know?

Jesus sent bears to attack and main 42 children because they called one of his prophets a baldhead.

2 Kings 2:23-24

Conclusion:

Christianity is pretty fluffed up too!

The reality is Jesus was a Jew. Jew's will always control everyrthing that matters

Where in the statement that you claim proves that LDS do not believe that Christ is divine, does it actually say such?

you're not really sure what you're talking about ;)


btw: here's a LDS Hymn,

1. I believe in Christ; he is my King!
With all my heart to him I’ll sing;
I’ll raise my voice in praise and joy,
In grand amens my tongue employ.
I believe in Christ; he is God’s Son.
On earth to dwell his soul did come.
He healed the sick; the dead he raised.
Good works were his; his name be praised.


2. I believe in Christ; oh blessed name!
As Mary’s Son he came to reign
’Mid mortal men, his earthly kin,
To save them from the woes of sin.
I believe in Christ, who marked the path,
Who did gain all his Father hath,
Who said to men: “Come, follow me,
That ye, my friends, with God may be.”


3. I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God!
My feet he plants on gospel sod.
I’ll worship him with all my might;
He is the source of truth and light.
I believe in Christ; he ransoms me.
From Satan’s grasp he sets me free,
And I shall live with joy and love
In his eternal courts above.


4. I believe in Christ; he stands supreme!
From him I’ll gain my fondest dream;
And while I strive through grief and pain,
His voice is heard: “Ye shall obtain.”
I believe in Christ; so come what may,
With him I’ll stand in that great day
When on this earth he comes again
To rule among the sons of men.

hi, trife!

kings is old testament, old jewish law, not jesus' part of the bible. i believe your kings here has to do with elijah (but i could be wrong!)

Hi braden :)

I was raised Mormon, I am a Christian. When Romney started his campaign bid I read an article on a news site about statistics surrounding Mormon beliefs. Im going to try to locate the article for you but it polled several thousand LDS members and either 97 or 98% considered themselves Christians.
Blows my mind sometimes the things people throw around.

Reminds me of when people started wanting to change some words in Canadas national anthem. Another poll of several thousand people showed it was about 4% of the population that actually thought it should be changed and the group behind it was saying that it was the majority.

joy , religious arguments

The divinity of Christ is rooted in the fact he is both man and God at the same time. This is completely abolished in the LDS doctrine that God was of flesh. 1 Timothy 6:16 clearly states no man can see God, so the "revelation" of Smiths where Jesus and God both walked up to him and talked to him flies completely in the face of scripture.

I will say again, the mormons are as much Christians as the muslims. They both believe in Jesus, but in completely off the wall ways.

Ok then. Mormons say they are christian. Christians say mormons are not christian. Enjoy.

yah. and atheists are possessed by demons who deny that God is greater than them because they can spin their heads around until they get dizzy. no wonder they call them the Fallen, too bloody dizzy to stand up properly.

Charles Manson said he was Jesus. Saying you are something != it being true.

"“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"

this explains everything:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX_1B0w7Hzc

That is bull.... way to cherry pick from their website. The section right below that says:

"God the Father

It is generally the Father, or Elohim, who is referred to by the title God. He is called the Father because he is the father of our spirits (Mal. 2:10; Num. 16:22; 27:16; Matt. 6:9; Eph. 4:6; Heb. 12:9). God the Father is the supreme ruler of the universe. He is all powerful (Gen. 18:14; Alma 26:35; D&C 19:1–3), all knowing (Matt. 6:8; 2 Ne. 2:24), and everywhere present through his Spirit (Ps. 139:7–12; D&C 88:7–13, 41). Mankind has a special relationship to God that sets man apart from all other created things: men and women are God’s spirit children (Ps. 82:6; 1 Jn. 3:1–3; D&C 20:17–18)."

Now I don't know anything about the spirit children stuff, that's a strange mormon thing, but none the less God is clearly divine.

God the Son

"The God known as Jehovah is the Son, Jesus Christ (Isa. 12:2; 43:11; 49:26; 1 Cor. 10:1–4; 1 Tim. 1:1; Rev. 1:8; 2 Ne. 22:2). Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brothers and sisters, for he is the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Some scripture references refer to him by the word God. For example, the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1:1), but it was actually Jesus who was the Creator under the direction of God the Father (John 1:1–3, 10, 14; Heb. 1:1–2)."


Again, they refer to Jesus as God. Where they differ is the belief in the trinity, as they believe Jesus is a seperate entity from God the Father. Obviously, they have some very different views from mainline Christianity, but they none the less follow divine Christ.

It wasn't a cherry pick, it was posting the relevant portion. When they state God is flesh and bone, they remove divinity from Him. How is that so hard to understand? But, just to further drive home the point for you, here is LDS leaders on the topic of Jesus:

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115) Brigham Young

"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers," (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547) Bruce McKonkie

"virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal, uncreated, immaterial, and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 269) Bruce McKonkie

"They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible." (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 19) Joseph Fielding Smith

'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times' Gordon B. Hinckley

Stating that God is flesh and bone doesn't necessarily remove divinity from him.

The overall Christian belief is that Jesus Christ was BOTH God AND Man. Not just God.

Newflash people- A growing portion of 20 and 30 yr olds with Christian backgrounds, could care less if Jesus was divine or not,

To them its not the point.

The point is living out a world where all epople are treated equal, where people have access to food water shelter and healthcare, and can mazimize the potential in their lives in conflict free, and pullution free environments.

And also the majorit of this group, doesn't believe in the virgin birth, and could care less about resurrection:) but they love Jesus' teachings.

I dunno... for a holy dude he sure didn't speak out against slavery. But he totally held his tongue on the whole gay marriage thing for which I gotta give him props.

Servant, we aren't talking about actual believers of Christianity or Mormonism so much... more about the ideology. I think we're trying to peg down if Mormonism is actually Christianity or not.

Who decides this? Billy Graham mayhaps? He's a pretty powerful evangelical Christian... but he's flip flopped on this issue as well!

Billy Graham has labelled Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, Mormons, and Unitarians as cultists... not true Christian churches based on these principles:

-they do not adhere solely to the 66 book Bible, they add special books and hold them equal to the rest of the books in the Bible.
-they do not accept that our relationship to Jesus is a reality "by grace through faith" alone, and promote instead salvation through works.

All of this can be found here: http://www.citizen-times.com/...v|head&nclick_check=1

The funny thing is, now that Billy Graham has met and endorsed Romney, almost all of the Mormon stuff has been taken down. But here is a soundbyte from Billy's son Franklin: "“He is a Mormon,” Franklin Graham said in February. “Most Christians would not recognize Mormonism ... but he would be a good president if he won the nomination.”

Here's another 2008 article where Graham says Mormon's are not Christians: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2012/10/13/15260/703

Servant a pastor...don't argue with him!!!

I DON'T KNOW ROMNEY'S REASONS FOR GIVING TO CHARITY. I'M NOT ABLE TO SEE INSIDE HIS BRAIN. I GUESS YOU ARE ABLE TO DO THAT? CAN YOU TEACH ME? I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO SEE INSIDE MR TITANIUM'S BRAIN.

WERE ANY OF THOSE COLLEGE COURSES YOU TOOK ACCOUNTING CLASSES? IF SO, AND IF I'M UNDERSTANDING YOUR ASSERTION CORRECTLY - THAT ROMNEY SAVED HIMSELF MONEY BY DONATING - THEN YOU MIGHT WANT TO ASK FOR A REFUND ON THOSE CREDITS. IF THAT IS NOT YOUR ASSERTION, THEN I APOLOGIZE FOR AND DISAVOW THE NEXT SEVERAL PARAGRAPHS OF THIS POST.

HERE'S A LINK TO A WIKI EXPLANATION OF CAPITAL GAINS TAXES: http://en.wikipedia.org/..._tax_in_the_United_States

PLEASE TAKE A LOOK AT THAT CHART, AND THEN WE'RE GOING TO DO A LTTLE MATH. UGGH! MATH. THE MIGHTY CLAN [DANGER] HATES MATH. THERE ARE NOT NEARLY ENOUGH EXPLOSIONS INVOLVED IN SOLVING MATH PROBLEMS. BE THAT AS IT MAY, LET'S GET ON WITH IT!

NOW, AS WE ALREADY KNOW, THE VAST MAJORITY OF ROMNEY'S INCOME IS DERIVED FROM CAPITAL GAINS. FOR THIS EXAMPLE, WE ARE GOING TO ASSUME THOSE ARE LONG TERM CAPITAL GAINS, SINCE HE'S BEEN FOCUSING ON POLITICS FOR SO LONG.

WE NEED A FEW STARTING FIGURES HERE. I'M NOT GOING TO GO LOOK THEM UP AGAIN, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER WHAT NUMBERS WE PICK, AS LONG AS THEY'RE HIGH.

LET'S SAY ROMNEY MADE 16 TRILLION DOLLARS IN 2011. HOLY SMOKES, THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY! HELL, WITH THAT AMOUNT, THE GREEDY BASTARD COULD GIVE EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN $50,000.00!! NOT FAIR! NOT FAIR! ONE PERCENT! NOT FA.. OOPS, I'M GETTING SIDE TRACKED.

WE'LL ALSO GO AHEAD AND ASSUME THE LOWER FIGURE THAT I FOUND OF 20% GIVEN TO CHARITY. THIS NUMBER DOESN'T REALLY MATTER FOR OUR PURPOSES EITHER, AS WE'LL SOON SEE.

NOW, FROM THE CHART, WE SEE THAT ROMNEY'S TAX RATE ON LONG TERM CAPITAL GAINS IS 15% HERE COMES THE MATH! UGGH! READY?

IF ROMNEY DONATED 20% OF HIS INCOME TO CHARITY, THAT WOULD BE 3.2 TRILLION. SUBTRACT THAT FROM 16 TRILLION, AND YOU GET 12.8 TRILLION TAXABLE INCOME. A TAX RATE OF 15% ON 12.8 TRILLION GIVES US 3.05 TRILLION IN TAXES PAID. 16 TRILLION, MINUS 3.2 TRILLION, MINUS 3.05 TRILLION EQUALS 9.75 TRILLION. ROMNEY KEPT 9.75 TRILLION IN HIS BEDROOM SAFE IN 2011. WAIT A MINUTE.. THAT NUMBER SOUNDS FAMILIAR. ISN'T THAT ABOUT HOW MUCH DEBT PRESIDENT BUSH LEFT US WITH?? ILLUMINATI! BILDERBERGS! LIZARD MEN!

OK, SO BACK ON TRACK, ROMNEY KEPT 9.75 TRILLION FOR HIS EVIL GREEDY SELF. NOW, IF HE HAD GIVEN ZERO TO CHARITY, HOW MUCH COULD HE HAVE KEPT? 16 TRLLION TIMES 85%.... WHAT?.. OH YEAH, I SKIPPED A FEW STEPS THERE, BUT TRUST ME. IT'S LESS CUMBERSOME THAN TAKING 16 TRILLION TIMES 15% AND THEN SUBTRACTING... ANYWAY.. HE WOULD HAVE IN HIS BEDROOM SAFE, 13.6 TRILLION. HA! HIS GREEDY SCHEME BACKFIRED!! HE COST HIMSELF ALMOST 4 TRILLION DOLLARS BY GIVING TO CHARITY!

YOU CAN GO THROUGH THE SAME PROCESS, SUBSTITUTING ANY PERCENTAGE YOU WANT FOR CHARITABLE CONTRIBUTIONS, AND THE RESULT WILL BE THE SAME. THE MORE HE GIVES TO CHARITY, THE LESS HE KEEPS FOR HIMSELF. WEIRD. NO MATTER WHAT HIS TAX RATE IS, IF IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GET HIMSELF INTO A LOWER TAX BRACKET, THEN GIVING AWAY MONEY ACTUALLY COSTS HIM MONEY.

NOW ON THE 47% THING, I GIVE UP. I'VE ALREADY STATED THAT HIS COMMENT WAS STUPID AND WILDLY INACCRUATE. IT'S ABUNDANTLY CLEAR TO ME THAT HE WAS SPEAKING ABOUT NOT WORRYING ABOUT WINNING THOSE PEOPLE'S VOTES. IT'S ALSO SAD TO ME THAT IT IS SO EASY FOR DEMOCRAT PUNDITS TO TAKE SUCH A CLEAR (EVEN IF IT IS STUPID) COMMENT OUT OF CONTEXT AND RILE UP SO MANY PEOPLE WITH IT. IT'S EQUALLY SAD THAT REPUBLICAN PUNDITS ARE SO EASILY ABLE TO TAKE PRESIDENT OBAMA'S COMMENTS - "YOU DIDN'T BUILD THAT [BRIDGE]" -OUT OF CONTEXT AND USE THEM TO RILE UP SO MANY PEOPLE.

AND JUST IN CASE ANYBODY MISSED IT THE FIRST FEW TIMES I SAID IT, I DISLIKE BOTH ROMNEY AND PRESIDENT OBAMA, AND WILL NOT BE VOTING FOR EITHER OF THEM.

HA!

SAM

"by grace through faith" statement seems misunderstood.

A lot of different christian faiths tip-toe around that one. I visited one where they said " you are saved by faith in Christ alone" but then followed that " as such you need to live the principles taught to accept this" they just didn't want to call it "works". Essentially it's the same thing just different vocabulary.

The LDS view is All men are saved by Christ. Without him it is impossible to be saved. However, we must do everything in our power as well.

ie: if you decided to steal 100$ from someone, then "repented", and stole the next day. you're not exactly living up to your repentance. You should also try to make restitution for the thing which you've done (ie: pay them back) You must actively be trying to improve and get better.


a primary story that's told is.... A Kid wants a bike. the bike costs $200. The parent tells the kid to save what he can for the next couple months. The kid does what he can and manages to save $15.00. The kid then goes to the store and his Dad pays 185.00 along with his 15. and the kid gets the bike.

It was going to be impossible for that kid to save up the money and he needed the help. but the parent paid the rest when the kid did all he could.

that just means that he's a leader of sheep. does that mean that we can't argue with iScode either? iScode is rather fond of sheep and a leader.

what are Jesus's plans for all of his flock? hmmm, lots of wool, and lambchops. suppose it's ok to be led around and protected by somebody just for them to benefit from my existence.

All christian denominations believe that faith alone is required to get to the Father. Mormonism REQUIRES you to do missionary/recruiting to get onto their own planet as gods... Erm... To get to heaven.

Deleting PDM's site wasn't very christian-like, LM.

Hi weedy!

23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

So you're saying the Lord referred to there isn't Jesus/God? Seems that would be in conflict with Commandment numero Uno.

poor little bugging blighters. wonder where their parents were at the time? seems obvious that they were a bit lacking in parental guidance, if they're going to run around mocking people who can swear to the Lord and make it stick.

And this thread is why I'd rather not get into the whole religion thing. It brings out the crazy in everyone.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19959565

would seem that some people might be a bit more crazy than other people.

Who cares at least he's not OBama

bah, elisha not elijah!



hi, trife, again! :)

sure, but jesus didn't speak to moses through a burning bush, nor did jesus create eve from adams rib, you see?

16 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;

17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


jesus was in the water being baptized by john, the spirit was the dove, and the father was speaking the voice out of the heavens. they can act separate of each other without it diminishing the meaning of the trinity. it is this acting separate from one another that makes old testament not jesus' part of the bible. (that and the jews, who originally wrote it, don't at all see jesus as the messiah prophesied- i believe, at least)

but i've been a christian for all of two years now, so you'll have to excuse my lack of sunday schooling ;)

i think the most important part of "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." is that dad was proud of his son. I wonder if he was ever disappointed...

I wonder if it even matters...

not when dad is imaginary. =)

and yet you don't hear any christians mocking you...whos the open minded ones again?

go ahead and mock me. If it bothers me, then im not as secure in my ideas as i should be... or thought i am.

ideals? why are google flash ads screwing with my input box? oh... christians don't usually go around mocking, they prefer condemning people to hell, makes it easier to shun them.

Christians don't condemn anyone to hell. They will just remind you that you have already condemned yourself, like the rest of us. Every person walking the planet deserves hell.

diss, you miss my point. My point is that me mocking you is a reflection on me, not you. In this case, you mocking Romney and mormons is a reflection on you, not them. Most mormons just ignore you and anyone else just rolls their eyes and thinks less of you. If you are okay with that...more power to you I guess.

I think that religion does more evil in the world than it does good. I think religion is one of those things worthy of mockery to illustrate its absurdity. It's called being skeptical really... and I'm certainly ok with that being a reflection on me.

Wouldn't you mock me for believing that Jack climbed up a bean stalk with magic beans and found a giant and all that? Well, i think Mormonism is just as absurd... just because several million people believe in it doesn't make it any less false. At one point, several million people believed that Obama wasn't born in America (some still do)... why argue with facts?

your post literally made me LOL.

Have you condemmed yourself to hell for deleting PDM's site? I don't think Jesus/God/Magical Faery would've approved of doing such a evil, mean thing.

yeah sorry i'm not good at wading through all the imaginary stuff so the point you were trying to make was lost on me =\ was it that the 'lord' mentioned wasn't jesus/god/holy spirit or something? doesn't read that way to me and also to me goes against commandment number 1 so i'm confused. oh well. people seem to interpret the bible so many different ways, in whichever way it is convenient for them at that point.

how did you find christianity 2 years ago? was there a traumatic event that led you to it? just curious

I'm not sure his "support" has really made either program more viable. With Medicare, he borrowed money under the assumption that his health reform law changes would net tremendous savings. With Medicaid, his health reform law basically forces states to comply with all of his new regulations or none--he even tried to say they lose ALL Medicaid funding if they didn't comply with all, but SCOTUS shot him down on that. Some states simply won't be able to fund these new mandates once the temporary federal funding ends in a year or two and then what? You have more people on a program that now a state suddenly isn't funding. I'm not sure that's a better alternative.

You can make a case for the potential benefits of shared savings programs through cooridinated care, but most folks were already moving that way on both sides of the aisle. Likewise on elements of PPACA that deal with fraud and abuse.


There wasn't disagreement on changing the way prexisting conditions were treated legally. So crediting him with it holds value so much in that he made sure the issues was front and center.


He's going whatever way the wind blows. So be his choice. Of course defending this biblically is a little tougher. I think he's too weak on the issue ironically enough.


Well, I'm glad you and Assassin agree on something. Needless to say, I disagree with your assessment.


Like those drone strikes...

i'm sorry, trife, but i don't follow your first commandment argument? i think we started in the same station and then both took trains in different directions? :P

i wasn't raised at all with religion in my life. i was never taught thing one regarding my "beleif" in christianity. i went from not giving two flying fluffs in life to caring enough to explain myself to someone who often smells of tinkle in roughly two years :P

no personal loss or tragedy on my part, thankfully. it was something i felt i might be interested in, and when given the opportunity i began to attend and eventually joined. i was baptized easter sunday two thousand and eleven into the presbyterian church of canada and have not been happier since.

i am afraid i can not give you a better reason for my acceptance of religion, but i lived twenty four years without it, gave it a chance, and have not looked back.

if i can give twenty four years to not believing, i don't think it's so absurd i ask you give a month to *trying* to understand where we're coming from.

walk down the street, find a church, and wake up on sunday morning with an open mind and you might just realize that we don't want to steal your liberty, freedom or force your way of thinking at all.

if anything, we accept *your* way of thinking more than you accept ours :)

i do use pronouns very liberally, don't accuse me of putting baby into a corner :P:P