So I want to take a second to discuss this and the other several dozen statements like it because I think it may not have been clear in our initial post on the subject:



That's incorrect based on the information I've seen. I haven't seen anything that says to me they went out of their way to edit countries (besides potentially their own). Knowing most LaF'ers and the LNU system that I designed, if it was done at all even sparingly it would have definitely been noticed by a teacher or strat-focused player. Adding even like 2-3 CS a day would be noticed by any of the teachers.

I believe the biggest transgression of the countries table was likely using it for free spyops; not updating it. When you update tables you're FAR more likely to get caught than just reading so I expect they tried to limit the risk if they updated the countries table at all.

The fact they got free spyops, or had the potential to, and finished 1-2 primarily because of their grabbing clearly invalidates their top finishes, in my opinion. This also means that the gain from the ops weren't available to other LaF members.

The idea that every LaF country is not legit just doesn't make sense and as someone who has had omnipotent access to LaF until I joined PDM they do indeed have the skill to put up 20 better countries than MD's top country. Having the knowledge of MD's schedule combined with better country building plans is like giving New England Patriots a defensive playbook and gameplan a week before the game. There's a good chance they'd win without the advantage; with it there's not way you stand a chance.

This isn't meant to be a apologist post, but we released this information as a community service and I feel that it's a disservice if it's being misconstrued.

to the people whose posts i've deleted: this is meant to be a point of clarification, not a discussion about football.

This for some reason made me chuckle out loud and is QOTW in my book.

did you even read that quote I posted? I only gave the link as reference

"The idea that every LaF country is not legit just doesn't make sense and as someone who has had omnipotent access to LaF until I joined PDM they do indeed have the skill to put up 20 better countries than MD's top country."

I'm not sure that this is a constructive thing for anyone to say, much less an admin, much less at a time like this. Not to mention it isn't even true, highrock himself I'd wager has finished t10 in LaF every set both sides were netting, t5 most sets, and since he has won before well...

I'm not saying that they are better players in an apples-to-apples way, but when you have 70 great players playing toward a singular objective, knowing the plans of their enemy vs 50 other great players playing towards a less defined objective, not knowing their enemy's plans... I can definitely believe that there are 20 non-altered countries that are better than the best country MD can bring to the table.

so translation: having 20 countries bigger than MD's best shouldn't reflect poorly on the 18 people who likely ran them legitimately, however the fact they were as good as they were was based on ill gotten intelligence that the players likely had no knowledge of.

thank you for the clarification.

well, that isn't a fair comparison Bobby, the end of a reset is a completely different context then the situation in Pangs reference. MD thought they had the advantage of surprise, so they weren't buying military early etc. LaF on the other hand was prepping to absorb a FS and was building up military earlier while it was cheaper and because we didn't want anyone to be easy breaks when the FS came.

It is a completely different context. Under the circumstances it is far more than possible (obviously, given that we did it heh)

Agreed H4, you guys knew the date and time of the FS so you bought up. Thats why your countries were huge. Its acceptable and believable.

ya H4, my apologies, I misread what Pang was saying the first time around.

Pang, #585 was online when it had it's turrets changed to -3500.

It wasn't hanlong's or TC's country - it was owned by someone called 'G'. Explanation needed here.

Of course if you have access to the database and some skills in knowing how to abuse such information, you can easily play the market and get huge NW advantages for yourself and any friends you tell just by knowing how much stuff is on market at what exact prices, how easily you can do a buyout and much more. I know some of that is public from the API feeds anyway but with direct queries in the DB its so much easier to do. In my mind it puts into question all the LAF top NW finishes ever since this cheating started (whenever that was).

Pang my information is different, lets compare notes offline!

Pang the Pats suck!

my thought is... the reason they knew of the FS within itself is a direct corelation of said cheating, via info from Ilgotten means. that being said, you could probly get all that land if you lg like laf does.

Why are you taking credit for some other LaF member that designed the LNU system? LNU was there nearly a decade if not more.

I don't buy it. If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and quacks like a duck it is probably a duck and should be treated as such. Thanks for catching the ring leader in the cheating scandal but leave the ducks to the rest of us.


Who here is ready to go Duck hunting?

We're all waiting on this, dagga.

Talk to qz, arsenal. I can't spend another few hours doing EE stuff vs working again right now.



What? I built the pages that allows you to flip through ops instantly, allows you to upload from the game without going through a parser, etc. I know the system makes it very easy to review what's changed from one op to the next if you upload daily, and I know most players (and teachers) try to keep the data current.

The point of that line was to make it clear that LaF has the ability to track country ops and does so on a regular basis. I'm sorry you feel butthurt that I "took credit" for someone else's (yours, i believe :p) hard work. Not sure why you'd attack me about it on a thread designed to help clarify that they didn't ALL cheat, but whatever.

Pang, the way I took aqua's response, which is understandable based on your wording(which I don't believe to have been done in the way aqua took it) was that he believed you were claiming you invented LNU/the idea behind LNU 'the LNU system I designed'

To clarify, Pang designed the mechanics behind it, usability on boxcar/improved it's functionality etc etc, made the LNU system far easier for the teachers, however LNU has exsisted for likely more than a decade in other forms.

I'm sure we can all agree that in emotionally charged times like this, statements are often perceived in very black and white scopes, and the issue often isn't intended meaning but how they have been construed, furthering the emotional involvement in the discussion and contributing to tensions rising and animosity spiraling out of control.

Pang, simple question -

Did TC/hanlong actually edit their countries from 'hacking' the server, or didn't they?

Well TC added 10M troops to his country.

wish i can edit my country

TC:
TC didn't deny adding 10m troops to his country when I questioned him about it. So I assume that is indeed what happened because I can't find another explanation for where the troops came from.

Hanlong:
Hanlong told me he didn't edit any countries (including his own top finish) or look at any ops (he used LaF's ops in Boxcar) but understands that it invalidates his finish, etc. He also said TC furnished him with a password and he did not hack it.

I think some people have been taking the "has the potential to" too far toward "they are absolutely doing this all the time!" based on some of the other thread topics.

As an admin I want to get the full accurate story out there based on what we know so that the community has the most accurate information possible regarding something that impacted the entire server.

Can you really believe anything that scum like them two would say though? No offense but if they told me they murdered someone i would assume they were lying and probably murdered hundreds of people. They are scum to go to such lengths to cheat at a text based game. Worthless.

People did not seem to see the whole "could have" or "maybe" in your original post. Thanks for validating those 20 countries bigger than MD btw since I was one and was quite offended they thought I was cheating :P

As a Rams fan, I object. There's no way the Patriots could have beaten us without cheating.



But since you don't want to discuss that...



I agree.

the general reason why laf countries finish higher is we landgrab a lot more aggressively and effectively then the rest of the server...its really that simple in my opinion...

kudos on patriot bashing

LaF got caught cheating like a Chump.

I say put the ass clowns on permanent farm list.

PFL


They all should be banned from the game.

I understand everyone being mad, but Fatty you need to shut your mouth.

Apparently this was talking about football. When I read this, it seemed like a good fit for the topic at hand. If this gets deleted again, you're better off using the ban hammer because I will keep reposting it.

"The funny thing about that is ... in the end, everything is brought before the light of day when it's all said and done. Even the thing in New England -- no matter whether those things had any impact on whether they won any of their championships or not, they've got asterisks now. They've been stained. So to me, it's never worth it. I mean, you've got to figure out ways to use the rules to your advantage, and figure out ways to make the most of everything. We've got new work rules [in the new CBA] about what he can and can't do with our players, and we're going to make the most of it. What we're finding out is that ... man, we can do something even better than we did before, because these rules make us focus on some things we didn't do before. That's what success is in this world -- you've got to find ways to do things better than somebody else.

"But if you're cheating? In the end, you're going to get discredited. It's just not worth it."

John Harbaugh in a radio interview yesterday

If HLW did:

- view other alliances site's posts on BOXCAR
- view other alliances site's posts on EVOHOSTING
- view other allainces site's posts on whatever they are on

Then I really can't see how it's different than what has been going on this game since organized groups began. Hacking, spies, steal logins, pretending to be another person, those are exterior gameplay that doesn't involve the game itself. Alliances can decide to take IN GAME ACTIONS against HLW for that, and may put the blame on LaF as well.

But that is just fine and dandy IMO.

If HLW gained access through a password given by TC, to Admin Forums and Private Message.

Then that is an Admin management issue, of not closing an access after a person has left the team. Sure, you can say HLW shouldn't have, but it's not much more different that the usual espionge that happens between alliances. (Previous cases of private messages being read on alliance hosting sites by spies who have moved up the chain into leadership, even PRESIDENT, has occured)

-----------------------------------------------------
I'm not defending HLW here, just saying, these accusations, should be separated from the accusations of game manipulation, and viewing other countries spyops with out using a turn.

------------------------------------------------------

TC giving Admin access to HLW to BOXCAR is just a meh, unethical to other alliances, but in no way 'cheated' in the game. You can hate and flame the guy all you want, and never trust him again, but he didn't 'cheat' by sharing Admin access to BOXCAR.

TC giving Admin access to HLW to EE is dead wrong, unethical to the game.

============================================================

Again, the country viewing / editing is the only thing that I think the Admins should focus on, and bringing the other things along seems part of a smear campaign against LaF.

Is it necessary to post the same thing on multiple threads, Watcher?

looks like a copy and paste job, lol

Maybe he is committed and typed it out every time :P

I didn't understand half of what you said Watcher lol

Well, he is committed enough to create a new account rather than being lazy and not hiding behind a fake name.

like

Looks like people need to read the rules they assent to more closely.

"Ingame behavior
We understand that competition can get fierce and emotions may get heated, but we expect all players to show sportsmanship and to remain civil when dealing with other players. Players should behave appropriately in all areas related to the game, including ingame messages, affiliated websites, the game forums, and irc."

Odd how certain people don't ever listen to that rule indeed.

rules?

Too bad a smear campaign almost always involves lies and/or misused information. The actions taken here are known to be true, so its not a smear campaign, it is an understandable guilt by association situation, that, if you had half a brain, is even acknowledged by the new LaF heads.

mind if i ask what actions are known to be true? and by whose declaration? thanks.

lol at HLWatcher

[quote poster=elvesrus; 17315; 318769]Apparently this was talking about football. When I read this, it seemed like a good fit for the topic at hand. If this gets deleted again, you're better off using the ban hammer because I will keep reposting it.

"The funny thing about that is ... in the end, everything is brought before the light of day when it's all said and done. Even the thing in New England -- no matter whether those things had any impact on whether they won any of their championships or not, they've got asterisks now. They've been stained. So to me, it's never worth it. I mean, you've got to figure out ways to use the rules to your advantage, and figure out ways to make the most of everything. We've got new work rules [in the new CBA] about what he can and can't do with our players, and we're going to make the most of it. What we're finding out is that ... man, we can do something even better than we did before, because these rules make us focus on some things we didn't do before. That's what success is in this world -- you've got to find ways to do things better than somebody else.

"But if you're cheating? In the end, you're going to get discredited. It's just not worth it."

John Harbaugh in a radio interview yesterday [/quote]






As much as I hate to compliment Elvis on anything that comes out of his pie hole..

It's a great post and has wisdom.