did you know that muhammad was a pedophile?

Hold on. I'm busy spooning with Omar. He's very high maintenance.

"
At this point, and I suppose I should have realized this at the beginning, it's futile arguing with hick, hoop & co. Nothing I say will convince them, so there's no point furthering the discussion."

You explain a logical reason to get offended by a satire not done with malicious intent and I'll listen. Until then saying "it is offensive" isn't an argument. If you start arguing then you can say I'm impossible. Anyone who can't see the absurdity in life really needs to take a step back and look at the world from someone else's perspective.

anyone who can't understand why people are offended by something that they consider an insult to their religion, and the values propagated by that religion, really should take a step back and try taking a look at the world from someone else's perspective....

just because you don't understand it doesn't make it wrong

hoop, i explained to you already why it was offensive. did you seriously not read that part?? i mean it took up most of that post when i responded to you the first time!

if you disagree, that's fine. YOU'RE NOT A MUSLIM, so i don't expect you to agree. But don't call it "irrational" just because it doesn't fit your neat little paradigm of how life should be. there are lots of things that are irrational. why do humans kill each other? if we cooperated, it would make much more sense than killing one another!

Now, I understand it. It however remains an irrational reaction. The whole point of a satire is to take things that when taken in a different context and "insulted" become funny to the target audience. If you get upset over something like south park, I truly wonder how you can get through a single day.

But you have it confused.

Muslims are not the target audience. They are simply the target. They are the brunt of the joke, you see.

The target audience are people like you who get a kick out of ridiculing others (I am making an assumption about you, here, which may not be true since I don't really know you).

It's satire, yes, but it is meant to make fun of someone else, and even mirthful prodding can be insulting.

What if South Park made an episode about your mom getting fisted by some dudes? Would you laugh? Maybe. But I would be offended. Others would ask you why you were offended since it was just "satire".

Now I am not comparing the two in relative "offensiveness" scale, but the idea is the same. Some things you just get offended about when they directly relate to you. Other things that are not so important to you are funny.

That's just the way it is.

If it is irrational to you, then that is your right.

"Muslims are not the target audience. They are simply the target. They are the brunt of the joke, you see."

yes...that was pretty clear I thought.

"It's satire, yes, but it is meant to make fun of someone else, and even mirthful prodding can be insulting."

I'm a "ginger" and that episode attacked "us" every bit as much if not more. I didn't find that joke funny. Offensive? Far from it.

"What if South Park made an episode about your mom getting fisted by some dudes? Would you laugh? Maybe. But I would be offended. Others would ask you why you were offended since it was just "satire"."

My mom not being of note, that joke would be taking on a different meaning. That said...I would not find it offensive if it were done in a respectful manor. Tom Cruise I think could very well take offense to some of the stuff south park does with him, they're pretty much just attacking the guy (mind you for good reason).

"Now I am not comparing the two in relative "offensiveness" scale, but the idea is the same. Some things you just get offended about when they directly relate to you. Other things that are not so important to you are funny."

I suppose I'm questioning why people do this. We all know that human emotional is by it's very nature irrational. I would hope most people strive to grow beyond these knee jerk reactions and to gain control of their emotions. Hell religion has been trying to force that on humanity since the beginning. Perhaps I expect people to have a more evolved mind set towards the outside world. Mind you this hope is often shown to be by own irrational every time I go to a bar on a friday or saturday night.

"That's just the way it is.

If it is irrational to you, then that is your right"

Lets just say I hope someday you are able to gain control over your emotions. It's amazing how much more enjoyable life is when simple things no longer bother you.

TAN wins the thread.

Gratz TAN.

"knowing that ignorance is worldwide and not restricted to my country."

Obviously, there are freaking stupid people anywhere, why would this be confined to any country.

Zen, you wrote

"When does it start becoming radical behavior?!"

No one is denying that a threat against southpark is radical behavior.

"When does Islam start becoming a radical religion?!"

You use one specific example to try and stir up anti-muslim feelings and make generalizations.

ZEN no one is denying 9/11 was committed by a radical muslim terrorist organization. If you want to talk about 9/11 lets talk about 9/11. I agree its a tragedy but blaming Muslims for the actions of muslims is where I disagree.

The problem people have is when you try and lump all muslims together, ignore politics, and use it to bash islam.

And I am not all at anti-American or Anti-Semitic just because i disagree with american and israel foreign policy and like to focus on why the political situation occurred in the first place. Do American people even think about or realize why this anti-Americanism exists in the first place?

Thats politics dude, the leaders mess it up for EVERYONE.

I admit that Im minorly anti-christian and anti-islamic, because Im kinda anti-religion and again feel the leaders mess it up for the common people, and disagree with their social conservatism, but I abhor unjustified attacks on religion as a whole.

"Lets just say I hope someday you are able to gain control over your emotions. It's amazing how much more enjoyable life is when simple things no longer bother you."

I'm sorry man, but it is becoming apparent that you aren't exactly sure what "to be offended" means. To be offended is to take an insult personally. This is not an emotional response. It is an interpretation of events. How you react to being offended is the emotional response.

Me, I don't react at all. I feel insulted, but it's not like I start shaking my fist in the air and throw stones at the embassy. So please understand that there is a difference between the emotion and the event.

"You use one specific example to try and stir up anti-Muslim feelings and make generalizations."

In all honesty, it was more of bait to get TAN (or other Muslims) on here. I theorized that if I started out with hostility and ignorance, I would be treated with hostility and ignorance. Which would have made it look worse for the opposing side. Really it was for my own state of mind. I am a borderline crazy conspiracy theorist and am only a hop skip and a jump from building a bunker and stocking it with canned food in my backyard. I actually think our government put the call in to censor the show, but thought I would test the waters a bit here and see if there were any interesting POV's.

So in conclusion, TAN is either an evil mastermind (which means I am way out matched here) and saw through my plot or he truly is a decent human being and not warped by his religion.

As for the rest of your post, I don't entirely disagree with it. Except perhaps to add to this statement.

"And I am not all at anti-American or Anti-Semitic just because i disagree with american and israel foreign policy and like to focus on why the political situation occurred in the first place. Do American people even think about or realize why this anti-Americanism exists in the first place?

Thats politics dude, the leaders mess it up for EVERYONE."

I don't disagree per say. I just think the people are just as much to blame. Like you said, a few should not dictate the whole. Don't blame the rest of us for a few people's actions. Perhaps we will never get around that concept......

Finally, I don't truly think you are an idiot. But even if I did, don't feel too bad. Many times I consider myself to be a well versed idiot.

I was born and raised in the USA. I consider myself American. Why would I be less human than you simply because I believe a different creation story than you?

Only Muslims are terrorists!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...routine-traffic-stop.html

Oh I guess not.

GG.

"I was born and raised in the USA. I consider myself American. Why would I be less human than you simply because I believe a different creation story than you?"

Don't be so offended. I actually think 99% of the people in the world are less human then myself. I was complimenting you, you terrorist.

I so hope that the next major global religious movement is atheism. 10k years of hating one another over fairytale books has not been all that productive . . . . perhaps when Christianity, Islam, et. al. go the way of the Incas, Norse, Greeks, Egyptians and everybody else that was absolutely positively sure they were right (and willing to die for it) we will finally be able to move past 'invisible man in the sky' solutions to our problems.

TAN, I am not sure if your persistance in the face of obviously being baited is comendable or laughable.

Besides, everybody knows that Islam is against the 3 Bs ( Boobies, Beer, Bacon) and thus is obviously wrong.

Hick, yer a tool. Just so you know.

"10k years of hating one another over fairytale books has not been all that productive"

I like you. Though, it is funny that you referenced 10k years rather than "MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO"......

I always thought Oprah was a lying fluff anyways. And if no one gets that, well that's fine.

archaic, i don't think everyone mass-converting to atheism will solve anything. it's human nature to fight and cause death.

look at the eco-terrorists in the article i just posted.

humans will always hate one another. you take away religion, and we'll find another reason to hate one another.

Speaking of which, anybody ever see the south park episode where to future societies war oneanother over each others interperatation of the writings of Richard Dawkins? TAN is probably right about my plea for atheism.

TAN is right quite a bit . . . too bad about the 3 B's though.

"it's an emotional belief. as long as they're running around thinking God is going to help them so they get enough hope to make it thru the next day, it's fine. when they start killing and blowing up stuff because of it, they're just plain loony toons."


By god (small g) Dibs....that may just be the most intelligent thing I've ever seen you post. Spot on.

So far as making fun of it - I can't say I really care that much, but then again it's not my religion, so I'm rather clueless on that part of it. All I know is that running around throwing cultural taboos in people's faces and mocking their beliefs (which they believe westerners have no understanding of anyways - which is mostly true) for a cheap laugh usually doesn't make a good impression on folks who get offended by it...

With that said though, I hope that most Muslims can let up a bit and laugh at themselves from someone else's point of view, and that the extremist tendencies are left to a small majority of the world's Islamic population. I don't see that many black equal rights groups protesting Token Black, after all...and he's an outright racial statement.

TAN, you act as though Muslims are the only ones south park has ever made fun of.

South park has made fun of: Christians, Jews, Scientologists, Catholics, red heads, canadians, mexicans, african americans, homosexuals, Rednecks, British people, Transexuals, Atheists, asians, mentally handicapped, physically handicapped. etc.

have you observed any of these people making death threats to trey parker and matt stone? it is a tv show! if you dont like it dont watch it!

Jesus, Buddha, Moses and other key religious figures have been illustrated in southpark. i do not see christians or jews making death threats to parker and stone. i dont see catholics making death threats to parker and stone when the pope gets made fun of. bud man if muhammad even gets mentioned, the muslims are ready to riot.


I will reiterate, IT IS A TV SHOW!

Hick, stop trolling.

I've said multiple times already that violence, death threats or whatever is an inappropriate reaction. If Muslims want to protest, that's fine. That's what America's all about. But death threats and the like are wrong.

braden
Member
Posts: 50 Apr 24th 2010, 19:34:32
the black catholic for sure. you gotta ask, what did they burn him for, and why did they not finish the job?


eric... fighting hitler is terrorism, i have no idea any more, don't worry- but then, some would also argue i never had an idea to begin with :P
-------------------------

hehe. :)

We can't generalize, though. Fighting Hitler isn't terrorism. On the other hand, it is a fair question to ask what is the purpose of, for example, bombing civilians to the point of creating firestorms over a city.

Those type of questions hit us hard in our moral compass. We like to be on the side of righteous fury, but usually the world isn't as black and white as that.

Anyway, all those problems explain why there is no agreed definition of terrorism.

Terrorism is usually defined by the guy on top . . . in 1778 the Brits thought we were terrorists, in 1943 the Germans thought the French resistance were terrorists . . . in 2006 Iraqi's became terrorists. He who writes the book gets to make the rules.

I'm not saying that terrorism does not clearly exist, I am just saying that the difference between freedom fighter and terrorist is a moving target that depends a lot which end of the barrel you're looking down.

TAN, I am not trolling. you are perfectly fine with south park making fun of all of these other groups, but as soon as its anything about islam, you want to raise a big stink. you are the troll not me.

Hick LOVES the fluff! Do you cup the balls, Hick? Or do you prefer someone crashing their meatspear into your gaping portcullis?

Really Dibs? Thats why you think anti-americanism exists?
Seriously?

clap clap clap

You need to learn more about this history of your own country. You do realise that America and the UK are largely responsible for Islamic extremism as it exists today?

American history and hypocrisy created this whole mess. And the rest of the world has to deal with it.

The failure of pan-Arabism to fullfill its goals is for sure linked to a rise in Islamic extremism.

Democracy in Iraq good.
Democracy in the occupied territories good until Hamas is elected, then bad.
Democracy in Egypt. HAHAHaHAHAHAHAHA

Not to mention that Israel has nuclear weapons, and the US has agreed to not give money to states with nukes that havent signed the non-proliferation treaty. This means ALL the aid the US gives to Israel is illegal under US law. Not to mention that the US believes that Isael should have nukes but Iran shouldnt, but doesnt even see how israel having nukes makes other countries want to have them....

The israeli occupation has lasted over 40 years.

If you want people to stop hating you, act like China. America could learn alot from Chinese FP.

Meh, a severe case of tunnel vision is usually what gets the US in trouble. Dictators in Egypt and Pakistan, cool, we can deal with you because you serve our interest. Dictators in Iraq and Venezuela (and based on the likely election results last year, in Iran as well) - well thats a different story.

To paraphrase Lord Palmerson:
"Nations do nothave friends, they have interests."

The US has had a hard time figuring out where her interests lie in relation to the Middle East for a very long time.

Yom Kipur war didn't go much better either.... although it came closer to achieving the arab objectives :p

Actually, Israel is occupying 100% Palestinian land, not just the West Bank. And that was a war of aggression, not defense.

Terrorism in the Middle East actually started with the Jewish paramilitary forces (King David hotel bombing, for example, although Jewish terrorism started much earlier).

A Muslim would say that :P

A historian who has studied the conflict even superficially would say that as well. Look up the Stern Gang for one.

best line from family guy:

"so you are saying the terrorist are located in Pakistan and Afghanistan?? OK then we must invade IRAN!"

http://www.youtube.com/...lUxVE&feature=related


hehe here it is

"oh, a minority of jews decided to use terrorism and the muslims decided it was sufficient reason to wipe out all the jews, oh, i see now."

oh, a minority of muslims decided to use terrorism and the west decided it was sufficient reason to invade two different countries and counting, oh, i see now.

lol Dibs couse CNN said that was the reason right

lol @ Dibs

Way to completely fark up which Iraq war I am talking about.

lolololol

Talking some sense into you is like trying to train a dog not to lift its leg up when it pisses.

"
I'm sorry man, but it is becoming apparent that you aren't exactly sure what "to be offended" means. To be offended is to take an insult personally. This is not an emotional response. It is an interpretation of events. How you react to being offended is the emotional response."

How do you take something personally without emotion? This doesn't even begin to mention that south park didn't insult anyone. They made light of people who respond irrationally. So if you are someone who has irrational beliefs I suppose you could twist this into an insult but it's a huge stretch.

Raising your fists in anger is a physical response btw...started by emotions but still a physical one. Something upsetting you is emotional.

so TAN, if i disagree with you that makes me gay? are you 12? that was cool back when i was 12 to call someone gay when they disagreed with me. I guess thats what the rest of the muslims are doing though huh? America is against al quaeda cause they have gays in that there American country!!!!

and TAN, israel is not occupying palestinian land, they are occupying israeli land which belongs to them. there is no country called palestine, it is Israel.

I can see where these guys are coming from. I often find myself wanting to track down and beat the hell out of Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins etc. when they attack the Pope.

I wish someone would attack the pope. It'd be easy, he has those weak nazi bones. :D

Yes, you have it exactly. Anyone who disagrees with me will get called gay, like all the other posters here who disagree with me.

Oh wait...that was only you who loves the six inch one-eyed monster.

there were a lot of people that were displaced into Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt as a result of the creation of the state of israel in the 1940s, where did they live before israel became israel?

btw, theres a good map guide to it all at the Israeli Foreign Ministry site http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/Israel+in+Maps.htm

"Moses dragged us for 40 years through the desert to bring us to the one place in the Middle East where there was no oil." ~Golda Meir

love Golda Meir's view of things :)

"I can see where these guys are coming from. I often find myself wanting to track down and beat the hell out of Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins etc. when they attack the Pope."


How can you possibly defend a guy running a criminal organization like the Catholic church? Half the people running the church should be in jail. I'm still lost at how catholics aren't demanding this.

...

FFS.

...

Finally.

This was a very good thread, thanks for resurrecting it, I said some pretty smart stuff in there. TAN is still a colossal poog.