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Slagpit Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 4:13:53

Game developers are strongly considering making a big change to how GDI works on all clan servers (Team, Alliance, and FFA). This post is your best chance to provide feedback on the proposed changes. This post represents a work in progress, so what's written here may not be what ends up getting implemented. I don't have a target date to share at this time, but some of us are excited to work on this and are hopeful that this change shakes things up in a positive way for the clan servers.

GDI will change from an individual country level concept to something that is applied at the clan level. Joining GDI restricts the types of attacks and spy ops that can be done by your clan members and that can be done against them. It is designed as a way for alliances that wish to netgain to have additional protection while doing so. Here is a short summary of changes:

* Non player countries are able to retal countries that attack them.
* GDI clans have a clan level army which can be called in to defend member countries.
* War involving GDI clans is a explicit concept that exists within the game that is invoked by clan leaders.
* Very early and very late wars declared against GDI clans are no longer possible.
* Blindside wars are no longer possible against GDI clans.
* Player controlled untagged countries do significantly less damage to countries in GDI clans.
* Landgrabs are still possible against countries in GDI clans, but attacks are limited or restricted between clans.
* Clan GDI adds expenses of $25 per acre per non-cs building outside of protection.


Here is the complete set of proposed changes:

1) Changes for clan leaders of GDI clans

* Clan leaders can join the new clan level GDI during clan creation for clans created early enough in the set. The clan GDI option is not available for clans created after 72 hours have passed during the reset.
* Clan countries contribute money to a shared defense fund as they play turns via maintenance expenses. The game automatically uses these funds to purchase a clan level army consisting of troops, turrets, and tanks. Purchases are made from the public market. Funds and military units in the clan level army will decay over time.
* Once per reset, the standing army may be called in to help member countries. At that time all funds and military will be distributed evenly to all countries in the clan not dead, deleted, or under vacation.
* It is possible to declare war on any non-GDI clan. War allows any kind of attack or spy op between the two clans without restriction. There is a 48 hour waiting period before hostilities can commence. All members of the attacking and defending clans are immediately notified of the war declaration.
* War cannot be declared during the final 15% of the reset or if the attacking or defending clan have below 5000 average land.
* War cannot be declared more than twice against the same clan during a single reset.
* It is possible to force a peace condition during war. Peace can occur in three ways: it can be mutually agreed upon, any side can force peace in the final 15% of a reset, or any side can force peace if either side falls below 5000 average land. Peace can be forced during the initial 48 hours before hostilities occur.
* Clans cannot be created during the final 75% of a reset.


2) Changes for countries in a GDI clan

* Countries in any GDI clan cannot be attacked.
* Harmful spy ops are not possible against countries in any clan. Normal spy ops are permitted.
* Outside of war, landgrabs are permitted against countries in a non-GDI clan. No more than two landgrabs can be done against any one clan over any 24 hour period.
* Attacks and spy ops against untagged countries work as usual.
* Any type of attack or spy op is permitted during war with a non-GDI clan after the 48 hour countdown has completed.
* Countries are 50% less likely to create missiles.
* Harmful ops launched by the country are 50% less likely to succeed.
* Any incoming harmful op or missile has a 50% chance of being blocked by GDI clan level defenses.
* Clan GDI adds expenses of $25 per non-cs building outside of protection. There might be a discount for monarchies and commies.
* Country level GDI is removed.
* Country level war declarations are removed.
* If a country leaves the clan it cannot join any clan for 72 hours.


3) Changes for clan leaders of non-GDI clans

* A war declaration is not possible against non-GDI clans. War between two non-GDI clans works in the same way as it does today.
* It is possible to declare war on any GDI clan. War allows any kind of attack or spy op between the two clans without restriction. There is a 48 hour waiting period before hostilities can commence. All members of the attacking and defending clans are immediately notified of the war declaration.
* War against a GDI clan cannot be declared during the final 15% of the reset or if the attacking or defending clan have below 5000 average land.
* War against a GDI clan cannot be declared more than twice against the same clan during a single reset.
* It is possible to force a peace condition during war involving a GDI clan. Peace can occur in three ways: it can be mutually agreed upon, any side can force peace in the final 15% of a reset, or any side can force peace if either side falls below 5000 average land. Peace can be forced during the initial 48 hours before hostilities occur.
* Clans cannot be created during the final 75% of a reset.


4) Changes for countries in a non-GDI clan

* Outside of war, landgrabs are permitted against countries in a GDI clan. No more than two landgrabs can be done against any one clan over any 24 hour period.
* Except during war, harmful spy ops are not possible against countries in any GDI clan. Normal spy ops are always permitted.
* Attacks and spy ops against countries in non-GDI clans work as usual.
* Attacks and spy ops against untagged countries work as usual.
* Any type of attack or spy op is permitted during war with a GDI clan after the 48 hour countdown has finished.
* Harmful ops and missiles launched against countries in GDI clans have a 50% chance of being blocked by their GDI clan level defenses.
* Harmful ops launched by countries in GDI clans are 50% less likely to succeed.
* Country level GDI is removed.
* Country level war declarations are removed.
* If a country leaves the clan it cannot join any clan for 72 hours.


5) Changes for untagged countries run by players

* Any country can be attacked with any type of attack or spy operation. However, attack and spy returns will be reduced by 95% against countries in GDI clans.
* Country level GDI is removed.
* Country level war declarations are removed.
* Clans cannot be created during the final 75% of a reset.


6) Changes for untagged countries run by non-player characters

* Countries may retal countries that attack them in any way they see fit. Attack and spy returns are not reduced against countries in GDI clans.
* Country level GDI is removed.
* Country level war declarations are removed.


CHANGE LOG:
0206/ - changed clan GDI cost per country to "Clan GDI adds expenses of $25 per acre per non-cs building outside of protection."
02/05 - first published version

This is a work in progress so it may be edited as we receive feedback. Changes will be published to the change log above.

As already stated, this is a big change. I am open to any kind of feedback and will read every reply posted here. If you wish to provide the most helpful feedback possible please keep the following in mind:
* Stating that you don't like it isn't helpful. State why you don't like it.
* If you feel that these changes will drive you away from playing the game, offer an adjustment that would make that not true.
* Point out any loopholes that may allow for players or clans to abuse the system. For example, I would be open to dropping the GDI maintenance requirement while a clan is at war. However, doing so would allow for clans to declare fake wars to avoid paying expenses.

I hope that this will be an important post for the future of the community. On topic discussion may be enforced more strictly than usual to keep things running smoothly. Thank you for your time and I look forward to reading your thoughts.

Edited By: Slagpit on Mar 3rd 2021, 17:15:00
See Original Post

DerrickICN Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 5:10:38

Damn. Slag totally broke my longest post of 2021 record. I gotta step my game up lol.

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts on this after I read thru it a couple times. Here's what i have after a first read:

1) regarding the clan GDI shared defense fund, will these military units be purchased off the public market? If so, could this be exploited to make destocking cheaper? As in, if everyone in the clan donated, or let's say a solo string in FFA, all their stock to the defense fund. Could they just recall the fund after the last turn of the set thereby skipping the expenses that are usually incurred?

2) regarding a GDI clan who wants to join a multi clan arranged war, will a tag leader of a GDI clan be able to trigger a war with several other tags that are also at war with several other tags. Is this something you can declare on all tags with technically but GDI clans can decline? I'm assuming it will be implemented in such a way that doesnt tamper with multi-clan wars, but I just wanted to make sure it was in mind I guess.

Otherwise man....please please please and thank you haha. This will fundamentally make the game more playable.

Dark Demon Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 5:23:58

i will have to think a bit more so i can get out what i actually want to say

1. this does not seem fair to the small clans, if clan A who is 20m declared on clan b who is 7 member the 48hrs notice doesn't mean much. but if the 7 member clan declares first they stand a fighting chance. yes i understand most wars are planned now but that is by choice

2. it looks like all these changes discourage any involvement with any other clans or person really just hit bots



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Slagpit Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 5:37:48

Originally posted by DerrickICN:
2) regarding a GDI clan who wants to join a multi clan arranged war, will a tag leader of a GDI clan be able to trigger a war with several other tags that are also at war with several other tags. Is this something you can declare on all tags with technically but GDI clans can decline? I'm assuming it will be implemented in such a way that doesnt tamper with multi-clan wars, but I just wanted to make sure it was in mind I guess.


GDI clans cannot declare war on GDI clans under the current proposal. If a GDI clan declares war on a non-GDI clan then the defender could not call in a GDI clan as an ally in a traditional sense. They could get FA, spy ops, or other kinds of support. It is arguably too restrictive, but I think it's worth considering why a clan who planned on netgaining would be declaring war.

DerrickICN Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 5:43:23

Originally posted by Slagpit:
Originally posted by DerrickICN:
2) regarding a GDI clan who wants to join a multi clan arranged war, will a tag leader of a GDI clan be able to trigger a war with several other tags that are also at war with several other tags. Is this something you can declare on all tags with technically but GDI clans can decline? I'm assuming it will be implemented in such a way that doesnt tamper with multi-clan wars, but I just wanted to make sure it was in mind I guess.


GDI clans cannot declare war on GDI clans under the current proposal. If a GDI clan declares war on a non-GDI clan then the defender could not call in a GDI clan as an ally in a traditional sense. They could get FA, spy ops, or other kinds of support. It is arguably too restrictive, but I think it's worth considering why a clan who planned on netgaining would be declaring war.

From my perspective, I would probably want to join this even if I was in a warclan. Just because I plan on using my stock to kill the last two weeks instead of destocking doesnt really mean I want to be open to suicides for the first 6. I think you could stand to open that up a little bit to allow GDI clans to friendly war should all parties agree to. It isnt just netters who hate the constant suiciding. We've seen arranged wars completely fall apart and ruin sets for half the server before due to suiciders.

Edited By: DerrickICN on Feb 6th 2021, 5:58:14
See Original Post

DerrickICN Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 5:51:08

Also, I think I'd probably carry the auto tagging restarts feature from team to 1a and FFA so restarting countries dont escape the 72 hour clan switching.

enshula Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 7:50:38

theres obviously a lot here probably easy to miss stuff


* Clan GDI adds expenses of $25 per acre.
does this kill off cash starts in clan gdi tags?
also in general 25 per acre is a huge expense early game, its something like 50% of early game income at a guess
can we test this on alphaffa?

* Clan leaders can join the new clan level GDI during clan creation if the clan is created before or during the first 72 hours of the reset.
is this you can only join in first 72h or only join in tags that were created in 72h?
also combined with the 25 cost if it has to be turned on by 72hh thats a huge early game cost

without numbers particularly decay no point worrying about the clan army yet

* Clans cannot be created during the final 75% of a reset.
this seems problematic with the current arranged war meta

* Outside of war, landgrabs are permitted against countries in a non-GDI clan. No more than two landgrabs can be done against any one clan over any 24 hour period.
this implies bots wont be tagging up, which is my preference but i heard before devs want bots to tag

* Countries are 50% less likely to create missiles.
interesting, thats probably going to be the main differentiator between war and net tags assuming its viable for netting

* Harmful ops launched by the country are 50% less likely to succeed.
potentially an issue netting but seems super unlikely

* Any incoming harmful op or missile has a 50% chance of being blocked by GDI clan level defenses.
biggest impact is likely to be almost certain reveal of whos doing ops, but theres some cases where someone is turn/op limited and the 50% fail would matter, particularly if its 50% fail then normal fail roll after for the ops
but for sdi it immediately cuts chem kills from about 60 to about 120 which probably significantly reduce the amount of solo kills that will happen

* Except during war, harmful spy ops are not possible against countries in any GDI clan. Normal spy ops are always permitted.
this comes later in the post but if non clan gdi countries cant spy on gdi then does the 50% apply during war? or solely to untags?

* Country level war declarations are removed.
are bots still going to join gdi at about 1/3 rate?
takes a lot of strategy out of the game either way
but i dont hate the idea of no dec war and bots still in gdi if there are more bots, just dont get that full stratification of targets while keeping dec war but you still get a lot of it since its only 1 dec war target per 2-3 days

* A war declaration is not possible against non-GDI clans. War between two non-GDI clans works in the same way as it does today.
seems a bit of a pity as hopefully stats and things get added for wars, one thing that could be added is a wider humanitarian range for example which solves a lot of restart problems without requiring big restart bonuses especially now blindsides are getting reduced

* If a country leaves the clan it cannot join any clan for 72 hours.
is this going to disallow joining vacation for that 72 hours as well?
or count time only outside of vacation?

* Point out any loopholes that may allow for players or clans to abuse the system. For example, I would be open to dropping the GDI maintenance requirement while a clan is at war. However, doing so would allow for clans to declare fake wars to avoid paying expenses.
you could tie it to a specific level of damage sustained, otherwise a clangdi tag who is war declared on will always be $25/acre/turn poorer than the aggressor

Mr Gainsboro Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 10:06:00

Its just too much to comprehend for a retard like me. It sounds good both from a warring and a netting side of things.

* Countries are 50% less likely to create missiles.
Clever way to make warring alliances stay the f away from clan gdi. sol/sof/mercs, whats your take on this?

* Clan GDI adds expenses of $25 per acre.
Would it not be better to have a dynamic cost with a high at $25 / acre?

* Once per reset, the standing army may be called in to help member countries. At that time all funds and military will be distributed evenly to all countries in the clan not dead, deleted, or under vacation.
Can't we just drop members from the alliance at the end and then recall the funds (does it include those countries also?) if so it would boost AVG NW for an alliance like LaF that have a lot of countries. We can easily "afford" to drop 15 countries to win over monsters/get all top 10 spots as an example.
Don of LaF

Requiem Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 10:57:18

Originally posted by Slagpit:
It is possible to declare war on any non-GDI clan. War allows any kind of attack or spy op between the two clans without restriction. There is a 48 hour waiting period before hostilities can commence. All members of the attacking and defending clans are immediately notified of the war declaration.


***

Originally posted by Slagpit:
4) Changes for countries in a non-GDI clan

* Harmful ops and missiles launched against countries in GDI clans have a 50% chance of being blocked by their GDI clan level defenses.


++ Is this removed if a GDI clan declares war on a non-GDI clan? Or is this intended as a buff to clan-GDI countries in terms of warring against non-GDI clans?

Originally posted by Slagpit:
* Harmful ops launched by countries in GDI clans are 50% less likely to succeed.


++ Is this removed if a GDI clan declares war on a non-GDI clan? Or is this intended as a buff to clan-GDI countries in terms of warring against non-GDI clans?

Edited By: Requiem on Feb 6th 2021, 10:59:50
See Original Post

DerrickICN Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 13:17:29

Originally posted by Mr Gainsboro:

* Countries are 50% less likely to create missiles.
Clever way to make warring alliances stay the f away from clan gdi. sol/sof/mercs, whats your take on this?
You have about the same concerns as me. I'd like to see all players and not just netters able to protect themselves from griefing, but by and large I think war clans wont want to pay a high early game expense to avoid killing someone.

When laf arranges a war with us, I think you and I both know you'd like the clan GDI until the war. And having all of our sets ruined like 2 sets ago when suiciders ruined an arranged war with half the server still pretty fresh, I would probably want to join this. I dont think much of the rest of mercs would, but I would lol.

It kind of assumes that war clans like getting suicided so they have things to kill. While there is some truth to that, a suicider could still ruin a war clans experience.

Edited By: DerrickICN on Feb 6th 2021, 13:20:16
See Original Post

Chevs

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Feb 6th 2021, 13:34:54

Seems very very cheap for the crazy protection it provides.

A simpler way to get rid of suiciders would be to formalize DNH at the clan level.

Example clan A and clan B are FDP

Clan A puts clan B on DNH at a clan level in game
Clan B is notified, they reciprocate
If clan B does not reciprocate, clan A can revoke for 72 hours.

After a clan is on DNH, any member who was ever in tag A , can never hit clan B in the war room, get some error or something
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2019-04-03 21:40:26 PS the stinky deyicks (#599) Beryl Houston (#360) LaF 30638A (43783A)
En4cer: Chevs... u would have beaten me by more than 100m

DruncK Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 13:50:23

I don't think this is worth pursuing because it completely eliminates the need for politics. You guys already gave the tree huggers everything they want.

Take all the effort you're putting into this project and give us a damn server with set to set rule changes.

Not too long ago all the alliances got together and made their own damn rules about engaging in warfare and it worked out great(EEWP?)

People run around all set with no defense because they want to stay in range of the bots so why not just remove AI humanitarians?

If you do choose to pursue this, you should make the bots willing and able to suicide themselves just so people have a reason to cry when their sand castle is kicked over

Requiem Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 13:57:41

DruncK under slags post you can still declare war on a gdi clan right? Or am I misreading something?

It looks to me like this is more about limiting untagged suiciders than anything.

Originally posted by Slagpit:
3) Changes for clan leaders of non-GDI clans

***

* It is possible to declare war on any GDI clan. War allows any kind of attack or spy op between the two clans without restriction. There is a 48 hour waiting period before hostilities can commence. All members of the attacking and defending clans are immediately notified of the war declaration.

Slagpit Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 14:50:57

Originally posted by enshula:

* Clan GDI adds expenses of $25 per acre.
does this kill off cash starts in clan gdi tags?
also in general 25 per acre is a huge expense early game, its something like 50% of early game income at a guess
can we test this on alphaffa?


I changed it to only charge for non-cs buildings outside of protection. If it needs to be more complicated it can be, but I'd like to avoid that. I will look into the alphaffa idea.

Originally posted by enshula:

* Clan leaders can join the new clan level GDI during clan creation if the clan is created before or during the first 72 hours of the reset.
is this you can only join in first 72h or only join in tags that were created in 72h?
also combined with the 25 cost if it has to be turned on by 72hh thats a huge early game cost


If a tag is created more than 72 hours after the reset has begun then the "join GDI" option is not available.

Originally posted by enshula:

* Clans cannot be created during the final 75% of a reset.
this seems problematic with the current arranged war meta


How so? What's the current meta?

Originally posted by enshula:

* Except during war, harmful spy ops are not possible against countries in any GDI clan. Normal spy ops are always permitted.
this comes later in the post but if non clan gdi countries cant spy on gdi then does the 50% apply during war? or solely to untags?


It applies during war.

Originally posted by enshula:

* Country level war declarations are removed.
are bots still going to join gdi at about 1/3 rate?
takes a lot of strategy out of the game either way
but i dont hate the idea of no dec war and bots still in gdi if there are more bots, just dont get that full stratification of targets while keeping dec war but you still get a lot of it since its only 1 dec war target per 2-3 days


Country level GDI is removed, so bots cannot join GDI under this system.

Originally posted by enshula:

* If a country leaves the clan it cannot join any clan for 72 hours.
is this going to disallow joining vacation for that 72 hours as well?
or count time only outside of vacation?


Vacation is still allowed for untaggeds and the 72 hour clock ticks during vacation.

Originally posted by enshula:

you could tie it to a specific level of damage sustained, otherwise a clangdi tag who is war declared on will always be $25/acre/turn poorer than the aggressor


I expect people would still find ways to abuse that.

Edited By: Slagpit on Feb 6th 2021, 15:01:53

Slagpit Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 14:53:25

Originally posted by Requiem:

++ Is this removed if a GDI clan declares war on a non-GDI clan? Or is this intended as a buff to clan-GDI countries in terms of warring against non-GDI clans?

++ Is this removed if a GDI clan declares war on a non-GDI clan? Or is this intended as a buff to clan-GDI countries in terms of warring against non-GDI clans?


It is not removed.

Tmac Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 15:09:42

Trying to understand the clans standing army. If someone hits me does that standing army help me, or only if the tag holder uses the one time we can send the army to everyone? Does it use all cash we pay for military? Depending on when you use it, the new expenses could make it hard to run turns. The best way to use this feature would be recall the military after everyone has jumped if I'm understanding this right. If you use it early then all the military bought with your funds after wouldn't ever come back to you then? Enshula has a good point about detagging people so their top guys get more as well.

Retalling bots definitely is a cool new wrinkle. Are you saying one bot could spend all their daily ops bombing buildings on me because I grabbed them once? Would some bots be passive, and others aggressive? Would they now carry warfare to help retal?

DerrickICN Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 15:11:43

Originally posted by Slagpit:

Originally posted by enshula:

* Clans cannot be created during the final 75% of a reset.
this seems problematic with the current arranged war meta


How so? What's the current meta?


I suspect wartags could work around it. But right now you'll see warclans split their members to make more varieties in war. For example, this set on 1a symbolic and xyle got together and "drafted" players from a handful of alliances. Just prior to the war people tagged over to team eagle or team badger.
It's also not uncommon to see wartags swap members with a netting tag before a war. Like maybe someone in a wartag is on for a decent netset so they switch with a netter in another tag who is wanting to war. In recent memory, laf has separated a few war people out, sof has swapped members with rage, eagle v badger war, etc. Current meta is usually a bit of tagging before the war.

Slagpit Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 15:20:32

Originally posted by Tmac:
Trying to understand the clans standing army. If someone hits me does that standing army help me, or only if the tag holder uses the one time we can send the army to everyone?


It only helps after the clan leader uses the one time distribution. There are two use cases. The first is that a clan ends up in a surprise war. During the 48 countdown, I would expect the clan leader to release the military units to buff up defenses of the member countries. The other use case is a small bonus to NW at the end of the set if a clan ends up not needing the defenses. The standing army is not intended as a new way to stockpile. The country level expenses are there to provide a penalty for the additional protection, to increase public market military demand, and to encourage clans who wish to war to stay out of GDI.

Originally posted by Tmac:
Retalling bots definitely is a cool new wrinkle. Are you saying one bot could spend all their daily ops bombing buildings on me because I grabbed them once? Would some bots be passive, and others aggressive? Would they now carry warfare to help retal?


Answer to all of those question is yes. The idea is to add some risk to landgrabbing and to make target selection more important. Just like a new player, a bot could AB you if your tank defenses are lacking.

enshula Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 16:06:07

non cs buildings sounds like a nice change with early game effect in particular, also helps with restarts and people who get their countries flattened, cash starts are still going to be hurt the most but not as crippling as before and theres option to do non pure cash start

have to join gdi in first 72 hours is pretty simple at least, an option to have costs start at 72h while joining before or auto join at 72h would be nice though


* Clans cannot be created during the final 75% of a reset.
this seems problematic with the current arranged war meta
How so? What's the current meta?

a lot of the time multiple tags will have some people detag and join new tags to war, evonet and evowar for example, a lot of it has to do with whos inactive and balancing numbers, but this set people joined 2 tags, honey badger, and screaming eagle, so it forces those tags to be made in the first fifteen days of the set, which isnt horrible but is more complicaated

theres nothing wrong with having 6 little tags all participating, or people swapping between tags but its nice for people to be able to participate either under their own banner or a neutral banner, could lead to every tag having to make two tags just in case


interesting changes with regards to spyops and missiles during war then, will be fun to watch or take part


true on the bots and gdi, i didnt grasp that, it is slightly disapointing to lose some of the strategy of dec war landgrabbing and gdi in wars but i imagine part of the reason is to reuse gdi for clan gdi and save a lot of effort making changes so its understandable


Vacation is still allowed for untaggeds and the 72 hour clock ticks during vacation.

less of an issue now than before, i guess i was just hopeful people would have an opportunity to kill a country that was detagged for some serious reason before it could make a 1man tag and suicide, although given it would need to vacation for 5 days to wait out the timer then tag up and wait for dec war timer its a fairly significant cost, but at the same time a clangdi tag wouldnt be able to kill someone that repeatedly grabbed allies and dropped land or two stepped


to have some sort of real war yet have netgainers in the tag at the same time to save 200m/day per 100k acres seems like a pretty big hassle. the closest comparison i can think of is a set where a laf country wasnt participating in a war and just kept netting but i think it died eventually anyway.

id lean towards something like x% of readiness spent attacking a war target reduces or eliminates the $25/acre/turn cost

so say a normal war country get 72+6 turns per daay for 78 turns a day or 234% readiness if say 117% readiness was spent on hitting the war dec tag then you wouldnt have to pay, might need to exclude ss/ps

but netgaining even if you were deliberately losing max readiness on a dh i cant remember if you lose 27 or just 18 that would still be a lot of hits and mil and oil that would be least damaging while building a lot of cs so you could still grab with other turns

for mono that would be about 13 turns grabbing, having to build 24 cs, and send 650% of your offence, just to save 1950*acres each day, at times it would still matter your up to about 50k acres so thats 97.5m a day or 7.5m a grab which works out to grabas of about 350k jets, and i think theyd be a bit bigger then, so your doing all that and basically destroying 13 cs a day

enshula Game profile

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Feb 6th 2021, 16:19:27

does the distribution have to be a one time thing? maybe a 72h cooldown? if a war is too early of course its going to be small and not worth distributing but the longer into a war the less effect it can have, and the longer left in the war the longer you keep paying for it without the potential of ever getting anything back


oh btw heres an exploit for you, have everyone except one person join vacation in the turn before everyone is kicked out of vacation and distribute the military then

given that its 14 days left, war cant be declated and can auto peace in 9 days left, and takes 2 day to declare that leaves a 3 day vulnerability window

and 14 days left might be a good time to sell military on public, or even just private since its free

Gerdler Game profile

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5077

Feb 7th 2021, 1:56:46

This looks viable and will make it possible for players to create a meta that is preferable to what we have now is what I think.

I would think that one problem with the current iteration could be, as some have hinted at already(derrick enshula maybe more), that GDI might be too viable for certain war clans. Without reducing the defensive capabilities it would be possible to make GDI less attractive to war tags by making the GDI protections against spy ops weaker if the GDI clan is the one that declares the war.

As such:

If GDI clan is declared on(unchanged from current proposal):
* Countries are 50% less likely to create missiles.
* Harmful ops launched by the country are 50% less likely to succeed.
* Any incoming harmful op or missile has a 50% chance of being blocked by GDI clan level defenses.


If GDI clan declares war on another clan, their interactions will be changed as such(same offensive penalty, halved defensive):
* Countries are 50% less likely to create missiles.
* Harmful ops launched by the country are 50% less likely to succeed.
* Any incoming harmful op or missile has a 25% chance of being blocked by GDI clan level defenses.

There will still be a nische for certain builds being possible to play in a GDI clan for war, at high effort. This is fine I think as long as we dont have all netters and all warrers join clan GDI or something like that. But this change would make it work only for very few and we would not see it very often.

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Beyond that, changing tags will be problematic IMO. If I start in a non-GDI tag and then tag over I didnt pay for the fund early on while it was expensive but im still entitled to the allocation of its military and funds at the end of the set and Im still entitled to the protections that go with it once the suicides start being something that one needs to protect against.

----

In order to stress the function of team play in clan servers why not make it so that tags with 1 player count as untagged?

Prime

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Feb 7th 2021, 6:39:08

I see a bit of opportunity here for tag switch exploitation for both users and non-users of this function if joins and departs are not restricted. If they are restricted, it introduces it's own separate issues

Gerdler Game profile

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Feb 7th 2021, 16:25:26

Yep. I guess the 72 hours of forced untagged means it can be farmed or even killed should the intentions be unwanted by anyone. Alliance leaders could decide together if the purpose of said detagging is benevolent or malevolent and together take actions or encourage actions that reduce the potential for harm in such a move.

If instead someone is detagging in order to retag for a war and the move has been cleared diplomatically by all sides then it can go smoothly.

I would not wanna sit untagged 72hrs as a netter under these rules. So maybe it works if alliance leaders police it actively.

If wartags A and B war each others(grudge war) and netting tag C release 2 huge countries to join tag A then tag B will preferably have their policing partner kill said countries or they will have to put pressure on tag C to not intervene, either themselves or through allies.

enshula Game profile

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Feb 7th 2021, 16:54:40

currently with 48h retal window and untagged only doing 5% damage against a gdi country then dropping tag to change tags wouldnt have much protection

unless it was enforced by a tag

but because two gdi tags cant war unless a non gdi tag was involved the level of enforcement would be limited

DerrickICN Game profile

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Feb 8th 2021, 4:52:25

Why is the goal to keep it non viable for war clans? It's almost like there is a great amount of thought being put into still allowing suiciding and griefing but only against war clans with the missile reduction and everything. That seems bizarre to me.

Why cant we just agree griefing is bad for everyone in the game? It's weird to make a major change like this that only benefits half the players.

Edited By: DerrickICN on Feb 8th 2021, 5:00:46
See Original Post

enshula Game profile

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Feb 8th 2021, 4:59:28

if two war tags go clangdi they literally cant hit each other and cant declare war on each other

if its ok for war tags then theyd maybe have to argue over who got to be the clangdi one

DerrickICN Game profile

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Feb 8th 2021, 5:01:50

Originally posted by enshula:
if two war tags go clangdi they literally cant hit each other and cant declare war on each other

if its ok for war tags then theyd maybe have to argue over who got to be the clangdi one

That's what I mean tho. And the rules are intentionally laid out in a way where if I am in a war clan, suiciders/griefers are allowed to hit me or I can't war. That's lame.

It's good for when I'm netting I guess but that's only half the time. I dont feel like any less of the server will suicide. If 5% of the server keeps griefing, then it just focuses that 5% on war clans and makes the gaming experience even worse for them.

I dont see why you punish a war player for wanting to war with the GDI rules. It should be open to all of us who don't want any bs.

Edited By: DerrickICN on Feb 8th 2021, 5:07:20
See Original Post

DerrickICN Game profile

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Feb 8th 2021, 5:09:25

Like right now it takes 6 or 10 suiciders, and tells them to focus on about 65 to 70 players on 1a. We're pretty much doomed to have a normal war.

ninong Game profile

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Feb 8th 2021, 13:03:11

might as well create 2 separate alliance servers for if this is where we're headed with one not allowing any hits between players
ninong, formerly Johnny Demonic
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HEMPMAN1 Game profile

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Feb 9th 2021, 17:02:19

im good with change.. at least give it a shot..

JamesBond007 Game profile

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Feb 10th 2021, 0:37:42

let's give it a try

beerdrinker75 Game profile

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Feb 10th 2021, 1:08:38

Let's play a set with it and see how it goes.
Just shut up and have another beer

enshula Game profile

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Feb 12th 2021, 14:07:51

checked on the net income in protection and for a mono with no income buildings its $37.33 an acre, so $25 would have been about 2/3 of that so good change

wouldnt be quite as high for cash start but would have made a big difference still compared to indy and farm start

interestingly land isnt flat 10 yet either so i guess that ramps up as well

Gerdler Game profile

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Feb 12th 2021, 22:26:14

Yeah $25 per income building makes a lot of sense. Farms selling on private with no tech are $142.1 as mono over unbuilt land and $153.7 over CS. I guess $191.0 if counting tax income? Does that $37.33 include food consumption of pop tho, enshula? I think not.

Res/ent are dependent of specialization level but comes up to about $150/ acre/turn net as mono fully specialized. Im not that worried about cash starts for this reason tho as they will benefit more than FFO from this lategame as they stock earlier at a lower acreage. Not that they will suddently be better than FFO, just that this won't make the gap larger.

enshula Game profile

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Feb 13th 2021, 6:48:49

37 was just building cs nothing else net cash income

so basically 0 food income or cost since you start off food positive then go negative as you fill the empty land

which means the 37-25=12 was roughly the available cash for when you start to build income buildings and the 25 would have eaten into that a lot


making a new country to test
with 100 acres you hit 0 net food and 3776 net cash at 40 turns
and 347 land expenses

if the land expenses started at 10 rather than 3.47 then there would have only been 5.5 extra per acre if you went to 100 cs on 100 acres, along with -24 food per turn
which if you had to buy on private is a crapload of course if you didnt stock up
even at just 36 which is about 34 food it would be 864 which would be enough to push you negative

of course that scenario isnt realistic since i dont think you can skip 20 acre bonus on real servers, or maybe you get it for having country during the signup day so not sure maybe for late starters you could

Gerdler Game profile

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Feb 16th 2021, 11:11:46

I can see a problem with tagging/retagging in relation to war.

If Tag A declares war on Tag B, and I sit untagged and wait out my 72 hours, and the declaration window, I will be able to tag up and hit immediatly with no warning.

Potentially this could be used at very little cost to just have one person declare war on a tag in GDI who would then either have to guess if its 10 or 15 comming to tag up with him or if its just one lone suicider. This may be solved by a large strong tag since they could likely get Tag A to the declare peace window by use of friends and/or subtags. Meanwhile, smaller netting tags would have a very hard time against this.

I therefore suggest that a person who tags up in a tag at war or in a war declaration window(unless that player is a restart of said tag) will have to go through the 48 hour declaration phase in full.

This would also help:
Originally posted by Gerdler:

In order to stress the function of team play in clan servers why not make it so that tags with 1 player count as untagged?

Edited By: Gerdler on Feb 16th 2021, 11:16:25
See Original Post

Requiem Game profile

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Feb 16th 2021, 15:45:20

@Slagpit

Where is the fail safe that a large non-clan gdi tag could just dec war on a small clan-gdi tag and tag kill them with ease?

Slagpit Game profile

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Feb 16th 2021, 16:34:45

Originally posted by Requiem:
@Slagpit

Where is the fail safe that a large non-clan gdi tag could just dec war on a small clan-gdi tag and tag kill them with ease?


Nothing, but it's still better than the current state. With clan GDI, the small tag can save up turns, buy up military, and try to get other alliances to help them.

Requiem Game profile

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Feb 16th 2021, 17:03:18

Would it make sense if a clan is more than 50% (or something) larger they can’t declare on a gdi clan?

Gerdler Game profile

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Feb 16th 2021, 20:20:59

If you end up having more complicated wars than 1vs1, say 2vs2 or 3vs2 or whatever, such restrictions could end up doing a lot of harm.

It would also be problematic if say a group of 2-5 netters decide that they dislike war tag A and start sending aid to war tag B while they are at war, and the game then stops war tag A and perhaps their policing partner war tag C from waging any influence over what that group of netters does since clan GDI forbids them from any potent action.

Requiem Game profile

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Feb 16th 2021, 20:44:46

Hmmm I can just see an environment where a war tag could just take out small GDI tags one at a time for their fun. Should be a reasonable way to prevent that.

Slagpit Game profile

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Feb 16th 2021, 23:43:52

Is the double GDI cost for theocracy problematic here? Should we get rid of it? Is it serving a real purpose right now?

Requiem Game profile

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Feb 16th 2021, 23:49:13

It doesn't really do much so I'd say could be removed for the purpose of clan GDI not being doubled...

Hardy Game profile

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Feb 17th 2021, 3:13:06

Originally posted by ninong:
might as well create 2 separate alliance servers for if this is where we're headed with one not allowing any hits between players


This

Z [Post Script]

Member
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Feb 17th 2021, 5:05:08

I appreciate the thinking here for sure. Based on my understanding, it’s not enough to get me to come back. At the end of the day it would add a lot of complexity without actually eliminating the griefing.

A few thoughts to build upon the work here though to try to further reduce griefing:

*Give clans owners the ability to turn off hits on other clans. There’s always some typo (Hi Hardy!) that results in some accidental damage to another country.
*Restrict GDI countries to two hits on them in a 24 hour, period, outside of war. I’d even say one hit (Hi Hardy!).
*Build in the Ebert rule, express style. Two hits on a clan = your clan dies. If you don’t disable hits on a GDI clan and if your clan hits that GDI clan twice, that GDI clan can kill you all without any waiting period. Clan allies of the GDI clan can also help clean the floor (e.g. Monsters and ICN could help LaF take out the garbage because they are clan allies).

All that said, Derrick had a good point about griefers having a smaller pool of players to go after. Perhaps allow GDI clans to exit GDI after 72 hours in GDI, sort of how it works now for countries in alliance. That way clans that want to war can have the same protection available until they do war.

Also, pricing this in a way that discourages running a good country is not my vote. Make it net worth based cost, not land based. There’s already going to be a tax on growth by having to actually carry defense against bot retals and due to even higher market prices for jets.

Finally techers will be most disadvantaged by retals by bots. Techer humans will tend to grab techer bots more frequently, and those bots will tend to carry more missiles due to teching warfare. For other country types it’d be far more about luck of the draw on a missile retal, and that sort of luck could decide whether you win a reset or not. I’d start by enabling only land grab retals, see how that works, and then consider adding other types later if it seems prudent.

My $0.32. Thanks for the prompt and the effort here!

Edited By: Z [Post Script] on Feb 17th 2021, 5:23:03
-Z (Post Script)

Gerdler Game profile

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Mar 11th 2021, 11:13:46

* If a country leaves the clan it cannot join any clan for 72 hours.

Possibly change this to

* If a country leaves the clan and joins another one, it will tagged but marked and treated as an untagged for another 72 hours.

This way diplomatically accepted moves for valid reasons are possible and safe under the tag protection umbrella, but moves from say a GDI tag to a non-GDI tag at war, which has not been cleared with the other side, could be dealt with for 72 hours. Ye?

Edited By: Gerdler on Mar 11th 2021, 11:16:43